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Hobby, Worms and Hypocrisy

Started by Zinger, Thu, 3 Jun 2010 04:55

Zinger

While enjoying our hobby, family and friends, it would be wise to look out the window at the real world around us. This is my reason for publishing the following.
A message I sent to the UN Secretary General following his announcement expressing his regret of loss of terrorist lives and the need to immediately lift their closure:
"A stronger UN for a better world, also means that the UN leadership should, prior to making statements and decisions, review relevant international law,  its own guidelines, and avoid joining hippocratic waves as recently observed on the subject matter. Otherwise, the UN leadership is just providing more fuel and food to the can of terroristic worms swarming everywhere."

A similar message was sent to the European Commision, which supports these terrorists financially and morally, following a similar announcement by Catherine Ashton.
Regards, Zinger

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

The Hippocratic Oath is an oath historically taken by doctors swearing to practice medicine ethically.

Zinger

Right on Jeroen thanks. Old age giving its marks  :shock:
Regards, Zinger

John Golin

I stole from the hippocratic oath as a way to educate my I.T. staff...

my first rule for them when doing anything is "At first, do no harm."
John Golin.
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

John H Watson

Who are the terrorists in this situation?

Dictators and sea pirates with high tech weaponry breaking International Laws?

Zinger

#5
A good question, to understand the answer one needs to know the relevant  interenational law and facts. I could quote from the very clear law, should there be interest.

Somehow I get the feeling that if someone's children who walked to school and didn't return one day, following 7 years of constant rocket attack, the question would be written with different tone. Ignorance or hatred??
Quote from: John H WatsonWho are the terrorists in this situation?

Dictators and sea pirates with high tech weaponry breaking International Laws?
Regards, Zinger

Peter Lang

Quote from: Zinger.... to understand the answer one needs to know the relevant  interenational law and facts. I could quote from the very clear law, should there be interest....

I would like to know.

It is also from interest, who makes the international rules and laws. Who respects them and who not.

Peter

Zinger

#7
1. The UN is largely responsible for current  Public International Law.
2. The Law of War is a body of law concerning acceptable justifications to engage in war (jus ad bellum) and the limits to acceptable wartime conduct (jus in bello). It is considered an aspect of public international law (the law of nations) and is distinguished from other bodies of law, such as the domestic law of a particular belligerent to a conflict, that may also provide legal limits to the conduct or justification of war.
3. The Law of Maritime Neutrality is part of the Law of War:
Short version:
http://www.achgut.com/dadgdx/index.php/dadgd/print/0016515
Longer version:
http://www.vilp.de/Enpdf/e025.pdf

The incident with the subject flotilla was carried out to the letter of the subject law. It developed to unfortunate firing and death after the IHH recruited mercenaries attacked the landing party, and when the latter lives were at risk. Only mercenaries were killed.
Regards, Zinger

John H Watson

#8
Under these Public International Laws, can I randomly impose a blockade on my neighbour or non-neighbour state or must it be UN-Security Council ratified?

"and when the latter lives were at risk. Only mercenaries were killed."

You call them mercenaries. At least one journalist, an Australian, was shot (only by luck was he not one of the killed). I don't know how "mercenary" he was, but how can we judge, when independent video footage of this tragedy was confiscated.

If future, perhaps the Israeli military might consider having an exit strategy if faced with WMD (sticks and knives), rather than rappelling from helicopters. Also, perhaps if they were armed with capsicum spray as many law enforcement agencies are, they would have had an option not to use guns.

I think the international outrage has been triggered because there was not what one would consider a "measured response".

Call me a cynic, but people tend to back David, in "David and Goliath" conflicts. (edit) Israel used to be David.

Zinger

#9
Quote from: John H WatsonRed text is excerpt of the relevant law, comments in bold black.

Under these Public International Laws, can I randomly impose a blockade on my neighbour or non-neighbour state or must it be UN-Security Council ratified?
Applicability to States and Individuals
The law of war is binding not only upon States as such but also upon individuals and, in particular, the members of their armed forces. Parties are bound by the laws of war to the extent that such compliance does not interfere with achieving legitimate military goals. For example, they are obliged to make every effort to avoid damaging people and property not involved in combat, but they are not guilty of a war crime if a bomb mistakenly hits a residential area.


"and when the latter lives were at risk. Only mercenaries were killed."
You call them mercenaries. At least one journalist, an Australian, was shot (only by luck was he not one of the killed). I don't know how "mercenary" he was, but how can we judge, when independent video footage of this tragedy was confiscated.
By the same token, combatants that intentionally use protected people or property as shields or camouflage are guilty of violations of laws of war and are responsible for damage to those that should be protected.
You would have probably thought otherwise, had you known the facts and looked at them objectively. I realize that you like most others were misled by deliberate lies and purposely narrow-angled selective photography, they are very good at this.

If future, perhaps the Israeli military might consider having an exit strategy if faced with WMD (sticks and knives), rather than rappelling from helicopters. Also, perhaps if they were armed with capsicum spray as many law enforcement agencies are, they would have had an option not to use guns.
I think the international outrage has been triggered because there was not what one would consider a "measured response".
You seem to have the knowhow to consult to those elite units which on top of great expertise, exercise the highest regard to ethics and humane considerations, unparalleled by any other state. The landing party carried loudhailers, paint and plastic bullets, welcomed by metal rods and stabbed with knives, 4 were overwhelmed, kidnapped to lower deck and beaten to near death. If you know of any unit, capable under the circumstances to take control over a vessel cramped with 600 people crowded, and while only when at risk of life killed 9 perpetrators.
Much of the international response was fired without factual evidence put forward.  One side of the conflict routinely uses lies as means to their end, successfully as judged by the opinions aired.


Call me a cynic, but people tend to back David, in "David and Goliath" conflicts. (edit) Israel used to be David.

Such concept is tainting the greatest king of Israel. They are terrorists according to the CIA, and have no respect to law, except their interpretation of Jihad. Nothing to do with humanitarian or aid, but rather with a bloody sword waved at all non-believers.
The country under which flag the Marmara sailed and from whose port of embarkation, is run by politicians put in place by the same IHH.

Some of the harshest critics are offsprings of that great king, two examples:
1) The honorable judge David Goldstone, now denied participation in his South African community due to the lies and distoriton he put in the UN report of the previous Gaza conflict.
2) Muhammad Ahmadinejad, comes form an orthodox family which on its way to Tehran from their village lost contact with its heritage.
Afterall, not everyone is Einstein, Freud or Lenin.

Gaza could have been a place like Dubai, if the people didn't elect Tunisian terrorists to run their interests.
Regards, Zinger

Zinger

Flotilla Song
If you appreciate perverse irony and dark humour, then this song is for you. It has just been posted on youtube by the "Flotilla crew" and will no doubt become an instant hit and race to the top of the charts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded#!
Regards, Zinger

John H Watson

Excellent video. Proves my point about the callous disregard some people have for human life. I'm sure it will endear the Israeli people to the rest of the world  :roll:

Zinger

#12
Callous disregard huh? We shall see. Didn't hear this voice when Russian security gassed 700 of their own perople in a Moscow theater while attempting to capture a few terrorist black widows.
If you don't properly protect, next you have undreground stations in Moscow,Paris and London explode, and Oklahoma City Government offices leveled.

Can you point out some entity with better regard to human life while protecting their country, than those who stopped the blocade busters? perahps US GIs in Vietnam and Okinawa, perhaps UAV attacks in Pakistan, David Koresh, or UK soldiers in Basra, Iraq??

I expect transport pilots to know more and be more objective about world terror. If not due to intelect, then at least because they are similarly tasked with passenger protection, and are themselves prime, marked targets.
Regards, Zinger

Shiv Mathur

There seems to be some wilful missing of the point here.

I don't imagine anyone says that terrorists should not be fought against.
The question seems to be, were they, in fact, terrorists ?

Zinger

If it is an open question, why do noblemen condem the action before studying it? are they petroleum users or do they enjoy the ridiculous UN circus?
Fox news item provides answers:
http://www.hosem.org.il/Jp/
Regards, Zinger

John H Watson

Quote from: ZingerFox news item provides answers:

A monologue in front of no (live) audience? (not even a laugh track?) It seems the American media is more biased towards the peace activists than the rest of the world (strange, considering who owns large portions of it). Our media had no hesitation in showing the events on those ships (no bias here).

QuoteDidn't hear this voice when Russian security gassed 700 of their own perople(sic) in a Moscow theater while attempting to capture a few terrorist black widows.

So who was being held hostage in this latest atrocity? (journalists?)

They say good fences make good neighbours. I doubt this applies to towering concrete walls covered in barbed wire. You can't protect yourself against everything. As someone once said, you could walk in front of a bus tomorrow by accident, worrying about homeland security.


QuoteI expect transport pilots to know more and be more objective about world terror. If not due to intelect(sic), then at least because they are similarly tasked with passenger protection, and are themselves prime, marked targets.

Such a burden on the shoulders of transport pilots, but who said they don't?

Quoteare they petroleum users or do they enjoy the ridiculous UN circus?

Why are the two mutually exclusive? It's funny how the despots, terrorists and people carrying out genocidal acts all hate the UN.

Anyway, I might try walking into my local bank with a gun filled with rubber bullets to see who asks questions first.

Rgds.
JHW

Avi

Quote from: JohnOur media had no hesitation in showing the events on those ships (no bias here).

John,
I'm glade you watch / hear / read un-bias news. It is a good thing.
Since you do, can you tell me the coverage of the Turkish invasion into North Iraq today (Turkey from all the countries in the world) in your un-bias media and what they are doing there?
Did anyone hear about it?
Do you think there will be an emergency session of the UN general assembly or the Security Council or the Human Right body of the UN?

Can you compare between the coverage of what happened (and shouldn't happen) on the ship (one of seven) to the Turkish invasion or the events in Uzbekistan in the past week (under the assumption that you know what I'm talking about)?

Quote from: JohnThey say good fences make good neighbors. I doubt this applies to towering concrete walls covered in barbed wire. You can't protect yourself against everything.

No, you can't protect yourself from everything but this wall and fence does stops suicide bombers which killed hundreds of people in 02-05. In fact, in 2009 we didn't have a single suicide bomber attack (and 0 so far this year) and that was for the first time since 1994 (when Hamas started to blow up itself in our busses, cafes, night clubs and where ever they could in the name of peace).
The wall doesn't stop rockets and we have to do it in different way and the most important one is not to let them get there in the first place. With the West Bank it is relative easy and you can't see rocket over there, with Gaza it is more difficult and this is the result for what you see.
Is it good? No.
Do we have a choice? Unfortunately no.
Avi Adin
LLBG

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Just trying to keep the peace at least here at the Forum. It looks okay right now.

There indeed is a massive difference in being a prime, active target of actual (suicide and other) attacks all the time, and being a very small part of a huge target which isn't often attacked in the first place. Israel is much smaller than the rest of the non-Islamitic world, and they do get a disproportional amount of trouble.

Although I personally do have my doubts about the pre-emptive strike on what looked like a humanitary aid convoy, and I am not sure about the harsh blockade of whole areas where, as far as I can see, a lot of people simply try to survive with a relative minority mad enough to pick up weapons and bombs, this situation isn't the same as the Western world in general trying to fend off Islamitic fundamentalist madmen with deranged minds.

If I leave the Israel situation out of the picture: I do not personally agree with constructing the same kind of wartime defence all over the "free" Western world just because there are a number of powerful madmen out there who abuse the desperation and religion of others to wreak havoc. If there would not be sufficient truly desperate people who cling to fake hope, these madmen would not have a chance.

I do not think these madmen are unorganised or in any other way to be underestimated. But I do not believe (believe, not know, I am not omniscient) that there are a billion people out there who want to behead everybody who isn't a muslim as they want them to be. And I also believe in a free world where we, by intent, allow a certain level of badness to prevent losing a whole lot of goodness.

Somebody who was relatively important once said a few things. I just quote:

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"When liberty comes with hands dabbled in blood it is hard to shake hands with her."

"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty."

The way my family experiences the so-called anti terrorist measures in my own country, including the newly founded distrust and hatred towards anybody not native to the country, make me believe that in most cases, these measures are totally missing the point.

In other words, the terrorists have won. Big time.


Jeroen

Richard McDonald Woods

Jeroen,
I agree with most of your post.

I am not sure that the UK should have gone to such extreme measures to prevent terrorism (cameras in most streets, much increased MI5 surveillance, etc). But I can understand the politicians being very worried that if they don't increase security dramatically, that they will be punished in the elections.

Living outside London, we do not see as much defence as those within London, thank goodness.

Overall, a very difficult balance for any politician to strike. And there is some concern in the UK that the Israelis have over-reacted on this.

Cheers, R
Cheers, Richard

Zinger

#19
Hello all,
just back from one month's vacation on the beach with the family. Due to security issues, my Gmail account has been made unaccessible, without recourse. A security aspect for consideration, relevant to the forum discussion about Electronic Flight Bags versus hard bound manuals and Instrument approach plates,  both subject also to bugs and failures.

Regarding the main subject, and Richard's highlighted  text below:
The general public has no idea of the real threat, being kept out for sensible reasons, such as preventing mass public anxiety and unrest. Not far from Winchester, at Heathrow, a young, married, pregnant red-headed Irish Catholic lady attempted to board an El Al B742 bound to Tel Aviv. She was carrying her Arab husband's "forgotten" briefcase, unaware it was cast from undetectable C4, and was stopped by airline security. Just one example of many.
When you get a better picture, you realize your entire cultural heritage is at stake, not just 50 bodies as in the 7/7/2005 London attacks. Political interests and European war experience are unhelpful. Liberal life in open society can be sustained only when such threats are eradicated. In Europe it is unlikely to occur.

Quote from: mcdonarJeroen,
I agree with most of your post.

I am not sure that the UK should have gone to such extreme measures to prevent terrorism (cameras in most streets, much increased MI5 surveillance, etc). But I can understand the politicians being very worried that if they don't increase security dramatically, that they will be punished in the elections.

Living outside London, we do not see as much defence as those within London, thank goodness.

Overall, a very difficult balance for any politician to strike. And there is some concern in the UK that the Israelis have over-reacted on this.

Cheers, R

Jeroen quoted someone wise:
Quote"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."

"When liberty comes with hands dabbled in blood it is hard to shake hands with her."
The composer was obviously detached form reality. It is exactly this "wisdom" that hinders any success in providing quality liberal worry-free future to our offsprings. Anyone suspecting I'm warmongering, please consult the Holy Bible Old Testament.
Regards, Zinger