Flying the Nose Wheel...

[cavaricooper]

Peter, Jon, Walter and other 744 typed pilots-

I was hoping for some tips on proper nose wheel flying techniques.  The Analysis page usually gives me very satisfactory results on main wheel touchdown rates, however, my success at flying down the nose wheel is less satisfactory.

I know it is acceptable to use reverse prior to planting the NW, with the buckets theoretically allowing for some "fuselage rotational cushioning" and that is is important to fly the wheel down and NOT allow it to drop on... but I am not consistent and sometimes get quite a thud (with resultantly ego-bruising touchdown rates) .  TNCM or anything with a large rock looming on the horizon tends to hasten my "planting" and cause even the toasters to register a complaint with the CP.  While I am quite fond of tea & biscuits....

Is there anything you care to share that would assist me in accomplishing this reliably every time?

Ta!

C

[Britjet]

Hi Carl,

Lowering the nose wheel onto the runway isn't normally a problem, and your touchdown rate is based on initial mainwheel contact anyway, so I'm not sure what you are doing here.
One thing to look at might be your nose attitude at touchdown. It should be slightly under 5 degrees, and not go any higher. If you keep "pulling" after mainwheel touchdown the nose will "rear up" and will take quite a lot of timely elevator to stop it dropping on later when the airspeed reduces. This isn't helped by pulling reverse too early.
I suggest also that you try delaying selection of reverse a bit longer. In any case reverse doesn't make a tremendous difference to retardation compared to having solid "weight on wheels" and using the brakes.
The 747 can land quite "abruptly" from what looks like a good situation very often for real. Usually this is because the aircraft is drifting slightly sideways at touchdown, or not aligned correctly. This sort of variability on landing is impossible to feel without a motion system, of course.
If you can walk away from it - it's a good one!
Peter.

[cavaricooper]

Peter-

Ta! This is usually not an issue with a scenery generator, but more prevalent when flying PSX alone.  I shall make a note to re-check touchdown attitude and try delaying reverses until she's planted.

Best- C

[acannata]

Hi.

Concerning nosewheel touchdown rate, which rate would be considered acceptable?
Thank you.

Aldo

[Britjet]

Anything that doesn't spill the drinks in First Class ;-)

[cavaricooper]

Peter-

While I agree that it is of paramount importance that the G&Ts must remain undisturbed, I would be interested in monitored RW touchdown rates.  I strive for-200 or less on MLG and around -100/-150 on NW... but occasionally (I'm sure due to trolley dolly interruptions, solar eclipses and basically any other excuse other than my ineptness....) I do see a bit more...  are these RW realistic?

Ta!

C

[Britjet]

I honestly don't know what a "normal" main gear touchdown rate would be - we used to check it regularly in the 777 CMC (can't remember the figure, sorry)  but not the 747 - I would guess that 200fpm is pretty reasonable..I've no idea about nose gear - very gentle indeed would be my best guess - the ice shouldn't even "tinkle" in the G&T...;-)

Peter

[evaamo]

Hi Carl / Peter, 

Not worrying about spilled drinks is a good motivation to keep flying the cargo version of the Queen.

A friend of mine says: "la carga no chilla" , which translates to: "the payload doesn't squeal" ;-)

Maybe it's my way of psychologically dealing with that loud thud on every landing.

Maybe Hardy is to blame for the sensitivity assigned to that sound in PSX's code 

Cheers
-E

[Hardy Heinlin]

If you don't use FSX or P3D scenery but PSX standalone, you should take the respective runway slope into account. This may add 1 or 2 degrees to the difference between rollout pitch and touchdown pitch. So when you lower the nose starting from 4.5° pitch, the nose gear may already land when the pitch is 1°, or 2°, or later at -1° or -2° or whatever, depending on the runway slope.

PSX generates no nose gear touchdown noise when the nose gear sinkrate at touchdown is less than 111 fpm.


|-|ardy

[cavaricooper]

Just landed at JFK (with happy toasters Enrique).  A rather positive touchdown (-312FPM) and then a gentle nose wheel deposit at -67FPM...

I will keep practicing

C

PS- that -111 gives me a good point to try and stay under HH- ta!  As ever, I am continuously impressed by the amount of thought behind even the subtlest details in PSX.

[Will]

PSX generates no nose gear touchdown noise when the nose gear sinkrate at touchdown is less than 111 fpm

Well, I think that's been settled then. Next topic! ;-)

Quick, someone add the sound of ice tinkling in First Class cocktails into the nose touchdown WAV.

Better yet:

0-111: No noise
112-222: Gear noise + ice tinkling
223-333: Gear noise + ice tinkling + beverage cart contents banging
334-444: Gear noise + ice tinkling + beverage cart contents banging + plates breaking and silverware dropping

When it is that the nose gear collapses, exactly? Is it before or after the forward overhead bins open and spill the carryons out into the aisles?

[Hardy Heinlin]

There are three different sounds in PSX. I recorded this stuff in a 744 full flight sim, and checked the pitch rates to get a rough approximation.

> 777 fpm : Loud rumble and hard metal-on-metal noise
> 222 fpm : Soft rumble and metal-on-metal noise
> 111 fpm : Soft rumble

The nose gear collapses when it lands before the main gear has landed.


|-|ardy

[cavaricooper]

|-|-

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for.... loud rumble seems ok... the metal-on-metal does not!

It would really be nice to know what the average touchdown FPM for airline flying is.... I know there are extremes, but I'd guess -150-200 fpm is a good target.  Confirmation would be lovely....  with all the captured data nowadays this ought not to be hard to locate.... Hoppie..?

C

[Hardy Heinlin]

Thanks, that's exactly the information I was looking for.... loud rumble seems ok... the metal-on-metal does not!

You seem to know it better than the guys who designed that level-D sim that Lufthansa uses? I have it on video.

PSX is actually rather too friendly than too unfriendly. I should make it more sensitive and play that hard sound at 80 fpm.

We are talking about nose gear touchdown, right? There is no metal noise on main gear landing. 200 fpm is OK for main gear. Autoland aims at 90 fpm for main touchdown. 200 fpm on the nose gear is definitely a hammer!

[cavaricooper]

Hardy-

I was speaking about my PILOTING performance- loud rumble being OK, metal to metal NOT OK.  Nothing whatsoever to imply any criticism of your programming, rather, gratitude at knowing where the "limits" are for PSX.

Knowing that auto land aims for -90 FPM for the MLG tells me I have a LOT of practicing to do!

Best- C

[Hardy Heinlin]

To me it looked like you were speaking about the information I gave you.


OK :-)

|-|ardy

[sgreen91]

I was wondering about the nose gear landing rate also.  Looking at the Analysis tab after landing it will show ie 70-100 fpm Main Gear 475 fpm Nose Gear.

I've been practicing landing using the Landing situation into EHAM and it seems I can never seem to put the nose gear down less than 400 fpm according the analysis.  I've gotten my main gear down to as low as 70 fpm.

I followed Britjets advice and have monitored my pitch at landing to keep it 5 degrees or so on touchdown and gently let the nose drop holding off on reverse until nose down.

I will let the plane autoland next time to see what it records as nose gear touchdown.


Sean

[Hardy Heinlin]

On a normal landing I always get less than 90 fpm (manual and autoland). There's no problem at all. Relieve the stick while the nose is sinking on its own, then pull just a tiny little bit when it's ca. 2° above the runway slope.

It also depends on your autobrake setting, of course. I mostly use 2 or 3.

Do you have a good stick?


|-|ardy

[sgreen91]

Well it's a CHPRODUCTS yoke so I wouldn't call it the best.  Saving up for the yoko yoke at the moment.

I just need to keep practicing as I tend to forget the flightdeck is much higher than what I think it is so I may tend to drop it to fast sometimes.   I'm still adjusting my yoke settings through the USB page and that also may be the issue.

I'm going to start doing circuits per Britjets  training so I can get a better feel for the aircraft during the dirty flight regime.

Sean

[United744]

When looking at touchdown rates, it's better to think in terms of feet per second.

200 ft/min = 3.3 ft/sec.

It's hard to describe my technique without showing it because it sounds like I'm pushing to land the nose wheel, which isn't what it sounds like, but essentially I flare the aircraft, hold the attitude for touchdown, and just as the mains touch I ease the control column forward very slightly to start a slight pitch down motion. It is all one smooth motion, helps counter the pitch effect of the spoilers, and I seem to get comfortable landing of the nose gear.

As soon as I hear the sound of the nose gear, I engage reverse. Auto-brakes are generally in use.

You should never aim to land softly - this can have all kinds of unforeseen effects, such as the weight-on-wheels not activating, through to you floating in ground effect *thinking* you've landed (go talk to the Air France crew that went off the end at Toronto, in rain no less and with CBs in the area - the aircraft flew over 60% of the total length before it finally touched down).

If you want hard landings - try an aircraft like an F-27 with long straight struts and no trailing link gear!   Modern aircraft are relatively easy to land well, so long as you use correct technique.

Don't forget to de-crab during a crosswind - it is perfectly acceptable to sideslip a large aircraft the same as a Cessna. Too many pilots don't do this; why is a mystery (lack of skill/understanding IMHO).

This is the correct method: http://cdn-www.airliners.net/photos/airliners/2/5/2/1406252.jpg