Pipe organ simulator

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

All,

When we moved to Miami I had to ditch my monster pipe organ simulator as it wasn't really suitable as furniture due to its imposing, massive size. Never mind the electronics fitted in a pocket book; full foot pedals and two 5-octave manuals take up space, just as the large audio-enhancing speaker encasing.



I still feel grief, but it found a good home in a poor church in Poland, at least. *sob*

However I now want to get something back, that gives me mostly the same effect without the hulking presence (and associated wall-trembling 32' pipe sounds unsuitable to USA cardboard houses).

I think about getting a medium-quality MIDI/USB master keyboard of 4 to 5 octaves, and one of the software sampler sets that claim to produce better pipe organ sounds than the thing I had before, usually of several large organs throughout history, for a fraction of the price of the monster. Something like this but there are plenty of competitors and I presume I won't even find 25% of them by myself.

I know of several pro musicians here that should be able to help me jump over the 20-year gap in my knowledge of computerized musical instruments. When I browse music shops over here I am astounded at where it all went since I built and programmed my own MIDI interface on a P2000T and a DX-100 around 1985.

Note that I am not a piano player. My fingers don't necessarily cope well with the balance-weighted strike-sensitive keyboards -- I am used to the on/off mechanical/ pneumatical/ electrical real pipe organ manuals out there. Heavy is fine, but don't ask me to strike with my little finger as hard as with my index or thumb. So possibly I can save some money and weight here, and go wider instead.


Hoppie

[Hardy Heinlin]

If I were me, you would buy Logic Pro for your MIDI keyboard. The price is ridicously low these days, and the amount and quality of all the MIDI instruments in the package is overwhelming, it's actually worth a few million dollars. You can simulate any type of organ, including a growling Hammond B3 with Leslie. And of course including lots of organ register levers and many other parameters. The sound is very rich and full of the typical details of the respective instrument. You can also simulate a big church organ and place it in the Taj Mahal. Play Doors, Emerson, Lord etc. As a bonus, the software provides all tools for a complete music production :-)


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Hm, Apple. Have not.

I agree the price ($200) is absolutely ridiculous. Maybe I should buy the Dalek to run it on after all.

[Phil Bunch]

I'm somewhat of an audiophile, so my reply is based in part on this special interest and hobby.  Also, in recent years, this interest has expanded into multi-channel sound for home theater purposes.
---------------------------------

Would high-end headphones, some of which allegedly can reproduce bass down to very low frequencies (10 Hz) help in building your system?  If so, here are links to a couple of interesting candidates:

http://www.headphone.com/headphones/sennheiser-hd-800.php#tabs

http://www.headphone.com/headphones/beyerdynamic-tesla-t5p.php#tabs

Pipe organs, especially at low frequencies, create sound that is also sensed through one's skin and lungs, not just one's ears.  Skin really is a sound sensing organ - one "feels" sound, and we respond more than by just listening to it.  Unfortunately, for loud, very low-frequency bass, one needs very powerful amplifiers and very large speakers.  And one needs an acoustically isolated room or house.  Thus, I fear that even high-quality headphones might not meet your needs for realistic sound quality as an organist...

Another thought - it is possible to find houses and apartments that have highly effective sound insulation in key walls.  I enjoyed an apartment that had this feature some years ago - I could play my sound system at full tilt without neighbors noticing.  Sometimes this type of sound insulation is called a "party wall".  It isn't that expensive if installed during house or apartment construction.

[Shiv Mathur]

To put in my 2 bits ...

The Apple part is not important ... you can get wonderful 'soft-synths' for PC as well.  
(In either case, the touch is not an issue  ... it is trivial to set the keyboard velocity response to zero.)

But Hoppie, won't you miss the pedals?  If the budget permits, do you want to consider looking at another instrument similar to what you had?  

Sure, it takes up space, but it probably is the difference between flying on a single PC and flying in Matt's sim.


(Phil's point about the ultra-low frequencies is doubtless true, but it would be the case whatever you get.)

I guess a lot depends on how 'as real as it gets' you want to get!

 
Shiv

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I will miss the pedals, but both budget and space just don't allow for this square meter block. And selling a $15000 instrument for EUR 1500 is something I won't be able to undo by spending another $15000.    :-(

I said it hurted.


Hoppie

[Shiv Mathur]

Yes, the price difference is massive.

Perhaps you can look at a semi-DIY project.  Get 2 MIDI controller keyboards (they just send MIDI information, they have no inbuilt sounds) - quite cheap,  maybe something like http://www.maclife.com/article/reviews/carbon_49_usb_midi_controller_review

or  http://www.ebay.com/itm/M-Audio-Radium49-Midi-Keyboard-/251413603672

You stick them (offset as required) on a stand/desk with 2 layers.

You can get seperate MIDI pedals (http://www.promenademusic.co.uk/midi-organ-pedalboards) ... not dirt cheap, but you can look around.
Stick these on the floor below, and connect them up.  You might have to do some hacking, but that should be child's play for you.

Judging from your choice of organ sounds software, I'm guessing you will want to play mostly music really written for church organ,  and a single keyboard with no pedals might be frustrating and dissatisfactory.  You'll only be able to use one 'sound' at a time, (as opposed to 3 for your DIY organ), and you WILL need pedals for 80% of the music.

Good luck with all this!

Shiv

[Shiv Mathur]

Also have a look at http://www.ebay.com/bhp/midi-organ-pedals

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Coincidentally one of the contemporary organ pushers has announced his "International Touring Organ", a digital instrument that attempts to capture the enormous history of the great pipe organs of the world while at the same time allowing a person to acquire the same kind of intimacy with the instrument that other instrumentalists can enjoy.



I am not particularly attracted to the visual design of the machine, but I do have respect and sympathy for the underlying idea. As mr. Carpenter says, the organ has an impressive history, a negligible present, and a bright future if we re-invent it.

If you want to see and hear impressive organ playing (not necessarily your taste but worth popping your eyes out over) I recommend these, in order, so that you also get some feeling for what kind of person this guy is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XECkSZvvxQc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zv6QqhVa50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRSFzzebSY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jo4Y-W1ur1c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeOvWB8TeV0


Hoppie

[Shiv Mathur]

Fascinating !!

Thanks for the links, Hoppie.

We discussed the famous "Turkish Rondo" some years ago on this forum ... this is worth a listen:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn5lD0RO20I

Maybe not to everyone's taste, but I find it exciting and extremely skilful.

Shiv

[Richard McDonald Woods]

Wow! Really awesome.
Makes me feel so inadequate. After 50 years without playing, I shall probably never play again, let alone to any standard that I would want others to hear.
Brings back old memories though.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

If you sit through the last link, a 1.5 hour presentation, you'll notice that mr. Carpenter more than once uses aviation terminology and metaphors. He talks about "cockpit emergencies" when an organ subtly breaks during a performance, like with one pipe inop, and he has to wrestle around the defect. And the way he designed the side wing stop panels with colour codes and simplified naming reminds you of how to lay out a flight deck.

In the end, just like any other complex, well-tuned machine, an organ and a 747 are not that different.

Probably that is why I decided to go organ when I was 8 and passed the basic musical exams and the last question was what instrument I wanted to continue on. There was really zero thought -- I just knew it.


Hoppie

[Tércio Sampaio]

Hi Hoppie,

Thanks for sharing. Really Awesome!!!!!

I like organ music but never listen Mr. Carpenter before, he is impressive!

Best regards

Tércio

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Spoken about flight deck building ...

http://www.martindigitalorgans.com/diy-order-consoles.html

Their VP Engineering is multi-engine rated  :-)


Hoppie

[Georender]

This thread brings back some very fond memories of my youthful years spent working as an organ pipe maker.

After an apprenticship at (formerly) Noel Mander's of Hackney, London,  I went to California to work for the inspired American pipe organ builder Manuel Rosales.

During the 1980's, electromechanical and electronic instruments were rudimentary, and couldn't begin to compete with the sound and physical presence of a real pipe organ (however small.)  How things have changed.  The sound of modern digital organ simulators is very impressive.  With quality amplification and adequate transducers, they can be very convincing.  And lets face it, who would have thought you could have a beautifuly voiced Silbermann organ in your own home?

All we need now is somebody to develop software to simulate the experience of crawling inside a 64' diapason :shock:

Cheers,
Richard