Landing Issues

[THisnay]

Hi All,

I've been using my Aerowinx as a prep for my rapidly approaching 747 transition course. It's been great to practice flows, get used to the systems, and rehearse flight profiles. However, I am having issues performing consistent on centerline manual landings.

If I follow the flight director precisely down, it should take me to centerline. But at 300 feet or so, the raw data (localizer dot) starts to drift, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of a dot. So I either have to ignore the FD lateral guidance and follow the raw data (which doesn't seem right and is frankly a bad habit) or risk being off centerline. It seems like there might be a delay or lag in the visuals. Could that be the problem?

Even if I can't practice landings, it's still a great study aid for me. However, I was hoping landing practice would be part of that. I can't even consider crosswind or engine out landings if I can barely land it in perfect conditions.

I have a new Dell PC to run it which should have plenty of power and am using the Thrustmaster yoke.

I'm certainly not boasting, but I've been flying the 767 for 13 years, so I'm used to Boeings and heavy jets. I theoretically should know what I'm doing.

Any tips are much appreciated. Happy flying.

[Hardy Heinlin]

It seems like there might be a delay or lag in the visuals.

Hi,

do you use the internal PSX scenery view or an external scenery simulation? In the internal PSX scenery there is no lag and no disagreement between centerline and localizer beam. Only when there is a very large crab angle there may be circa a tenth of a dot deviation because the localizer track antenna is in the nose section and on the 747 the distance between the main gear and the nose is very long. But it certainly won't cause a deviation of 1/2 to 2/3 of a dot. I assume you're referring to an external scenery generator? Where's your LOC beam when you are in takeoff position? And does the problem occur on all runways?


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Gary Oliver]

If using the WASM Module there is a chance the runway position in PSX and MSFS disagree slightly although much improved from previous P3D and FSX versions.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I suggest to do a few approaches using only the native PSX windshield display. If your hardware setup is such that you prefer two displays, just run two instances of PSX with one modified to only show the windshield view, enlarged. Simply copy the whole Aerowinx folder to another one (Aerowinx-2, for example) and run PSX from there. Configure the 2nd one as client and point it at the 1st one. Done.


Hoppie

[Bluestar]

If I follow the flight director precisely down, it should take me to centerline. But at 300 feet or so, the raw data (localizer dot) starts to drift, maybe 1/2 to 2/3 of a dot. So I either have to ignore the FD lateral guidance and follow the raw data (which doesn't seem right and is frankly a bad habit) or risk being off centerline. It seems like there might be a delay or lag in the visuals. Could that be the problem?

Which scenery are you using?  Depending on the scenery, there can be a 30 foot discrepancy in the aircraft position.  One way to check the scenery is to reposition the aircraft using Aerowinx.  Go to Situation/Position/Aircraft Position.  In Aircraft Position put the ICAO code for the airport your using and a chart will come up for you to choose the runway you want. 

Does this occur doing an Autoland?

Since I do a lot of manual landings I've noticed a tendency in Aerowinx for a windshift in the 200-300 foot agl range.  Depending on the weather this shift can be significant. This shift can be seen on the NAV display.  It is not unusual to land on the center line (FS2024) and Aerowinx show me to me 30 feet off centerline

I'm using Gary's WASM with FS2024. 

[Mariano]

Hey,

Is this Timothy!?

This is Mariano, the cat guy. ;-)

If so, happy to see you here.

Mariano

[andrej]

My issues is that either make a floating landing, but with acceptable FPM, or hard landing right on numbers.

Not making any excuse, but it might be my stick (TCA). :-)

At 30' I start to flare and pull-back thrust. However I over do it (fare). Recently I started to focus on PFD more and stop flaring around 3* - 5* attitude and hold it. Still, sometimes I make a very nice landing (source: PSX Landing Score app) and sometimes, I need to surrender my virtual pilot's license, and I feel that I should add also my passport with it. 

[THisnay]

Thanks for the replies.

I am just using the internal scenery with no additional options. To Hardy's point, the localizer does seem to agree with the centerline but NOT necessarily with the FD lateral guidance. So the raw data seems OK but not necessarily the flight director.

I will check the wind shift at 300 feet or so. Thanks for the tip.

The auto land function seems to work fine. However, the airplane literally never banks all the way down final. Nice if it did that in the real world but sadly not the case.

I will try some other ILS and runway pairs, watch the wind shift, and work on my technique.

Cheers and thanks again.

[Hardy Heinlin]

The auto land function seems to work fine.

The autopilot does what the flight director does. So, if the F/D command were incorrect, the A/P would be incorrect too.

Do you use rudder pedals? Are they perfectly centered? In flight, your lateral F/D command will refer to your aileron, not to your rudder. If your rudder is not centered, your F/D aileron commands will be too weak or too strong, depending on whether your rudder is steering in the opposite or in the same direction as your aileron.

By the way, in crosswind the autoland will do a side slip (in the real world and in PSX). But it won't exceed 5° bank. If you expect greater bank angles -- that won't happen.

[THisnay]

Yes, thanks for the good insight. I am using rudder pedals, but they are an old ProPedals set that I had from my Microsoft days. (Trying to save money, what can I say?) I have been having some issues with them, including a flickering white (left rudder)input on the control column display. They seem to work alright for takeoff, but maybe it's time to upgrade.

A random left rudder input would make life a lot more difficult. The left brake doesn't always release 100% as well.

[THisnay]

So it gets a bit stranger. I installed a new set of Logitek rudder pedals, assigned the appropriate functions, checked calibration, and the problem was worse. While flying an ILS, I had a full left indication of rudder and a verbal cue of "Check your rudder" while the rudder pedals were completely centered.

The odds of two different rudder sets being in error seems unlikely. Could it possibly be a bad USB port?

[Hardy Heinlin]

When you hear "Check your rudder", your rudder at the tail of the aircraft is definitely not centered, even when your USB pedals are centered. The point is that there's also a sim controlled rudder trim. It has to be sim controlled because there is no rudder trim button on your hardware rudder. As you know, the 747 has a rudder trim knob on the aisle stand. When you use that, the rudder gets off-center even while your USB pedals remain centered. You can see this on the flight control indicators on the info tag and on the EICAS.

Now here's the actual point: PSX has a special feature in its virtual copilot. When you hit the space key in flight while the slip indicator is not centered, the virtual copilot will actuate the rudder trim knob on the aisle stand until the slip indicator is centered. During this action, the rudder indicator on the info tag will flash, so you can see what's going on. This feature is designed for engine failures and when you use PSX as a desktop sim without hardwarde rudder pedals. You just hit the space bar and the rudder trim will compensate for the yaw within a few seconds.

And here's my theory: Perhaps you hit the space bar while the slip indicator wasn't perfectly centered. Then you tried to counteract it with your rudder pedals.

Solution: If you use hardware rudders, never hit the space bar in flight (only on the ground for braking).

[THisnay]

Thanks again for your reply. Well I definitely didn't hit the space bar. Apparently something is triggering the sim controlled rudder trim? Is there a way to disable that function?

I'm running a bit out of time preparing for my course, so I will have to limit my troubleshooting. Aerowinx is still a valuable trading aid, but it's proving less usable for some things than I had hoped. I can't realistically practice hand-flying or landings if I'm getting random, strong rudder inputs. Am I the only one having this problem?

Regards.

[Will]

Have you checked that you don't have multiple inputs assigned to the rudder—the pedals, plus something else? Or a keyboard binding that is not immediately obvious?

[Bluestar]

Thanks again for your reply. Well I definitely didn't hit the space bar. Apparently something is triggering the sim controlled rudder trim? Is there a way to disable that function?

I'm running a bit out of time preparing for my course, so I will have to limit my troubleshooting. Aerowinx is still a valuable trading aid, but it's proving less usable for some things than I had hoped. I can't realistically practice hand-flying or landings if I'm getting random, strong rudder inputs. Am I the only one having this problem?

Regards.

I don't have any issues with my rudder pedals. 

Go into Preferences/Rudder/Calibrate and increase the Null Zones.  Make sure the rudders are the same.

Also run the search function in this forum and there are several threads that talk about calibration of joysticks and rudder pedals. 

Let us know if you continue to have problems.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Thanks again for your reply. Well I definitely didn't hit the space bar. Apparently something is triggering the sim controlled rudder trim? Is there a way to disable that function?

Let's analyse this issue step by step. You're the first customer in 28 years that reports such a problem. I'm sure it can be solved.

1. Is it really the rudder trim that goes off-center?
Check the rudder trim indicator on the aisle stand: Is the pointer centered? If so, the trim is OK.

2. Are your rudder pedals well calibrated?
Check the rudder indicator on the EICAS. Touch your pedals slightly and watch the indicator: Does it deflect too much? Is it too sensitive? If so, recalibrate it according to this tutorial: https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php/topic,4805.0.html

3. Do other USB axes or buttons influence your USB rudder pedals?
Check the rudder indicator on the EICAS. Move all USB axes except for the rudder, and hold every USB button (one after the other) while watching the EICAS rudder indicator: Does it deflect when it shouldn't? If so, please check which USB axis or button causes this unwanted rudder input.

4. If the fault is found in step 3, check the faulty axis or button on the sim's USB page: Is the assignment incorrect? If so, assign it correctly. If not, there seems to be a problem in your USB hardware interface.


Best wishes,

|-|ardy

[B747-400]

Sounds really strange. Have you checked possible keyboard inputs (or joystick buttons) sending K, L, Delete or PgDown etc.? Those keystrokes controls rudder as well.

Just my 2ct.

BR
Hans

[macroflight]

So it gets a bit stranger. I installed a new set of Logitek rudder pedals, assigned the appropriate functions, checked calibration, and the problem was worse. While flying an ILS, I had a full left indication of rudder and a verbal cue of "Check your rudder" while the rudder pedals were completely centered.

I would check for multiple USB rudder inputs. Twice.

If you have more than one USB axis bound to Rudder in the PSX settings, it will behave in a somewhat surprising way - as soon as there is movement on any of the axes, the PSX rudder will snap to that position.

As long as both USB axes are spring-loaded and return to center, this behavior doesn't matter very much. But the TM yoke has two non-spring-loaded mini throttles. If one of those is bound to Rudder... mayhem. Let's say you have your physical pedals centered, the mini-throttle at idle (which would mean full left or right rudder to PSX), and the PSX rudder indicator is centered. Then you touch the mini-throttle (or a vibration or noise cause it to move even slightly). The PSX rudder would then snap to full left or right rudder and stay there until the mini-throttle moves again or you press your hardware rudder pedals slightly.

Also, some TM yokes develop various problems over time. Mine has a noisy mini-joystick and I had to insert some stuff inside the yoke to hold down a cable inside it to get rid of calibration issues on the roll axis. So you might not even have to touch the mini-throttle...

[Captain_al]

The original post says things change at 300 feet. This is exactly what I have found as well. Hand flying, no A/T. I am perfectly on speed, on LOC, on G/S. At 300 feet nothing much should change. If I stay inside, the LOC starts going and the jet starts to go high (ground effect at 300 feet?). For a long time, I could not land this sim very well at all. So now I go totally visual outside at 300 feet and correct the pitch and maintain the runway centerline. In a low viz 3 engine hand flown approach in the actual simulator (Level D), at minimums I just glance up, verify the approach lights are in sight and then say "Continue". My eyes go right back inside staying on the LOC and G/S till 100 feet, where I now fully pick up my head, verify the runway and say "Landing". There is no way I can do that in PSX. I use MSFS 2020 Gary's WASM, I am going to try just using the Aerowinx visual to see if there is a difference. I am fine with it and I have played around with it and my compromise is to go fully visual at 300 feet paying attention to maintaining pitch and RW Centerline.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Can you provide an approach situ file where this effect starts at 300 feet?

I have never had any problems landing PSX manually under CAT III conditions.