request help with setting up a network for running PSX

[Rhetro]

Hello all,
I've been reading up on Hoppie's documentation with setting up a network. I'm eventually going to do a cockpit build, and want to start off with making sure I'm doing things correctly at the software end before buying the hardware, peripherals, etc.

My (limited) understanding is that according to his diagram, that the system that hosts the PSX software is the Server, and that the clients are external hardware devices (to include other computers, Raspberry pies etc, or controllers) via a router to be controlled through a router program like Hoppie's PSX Router?

I couldn't get telnet on my win 10 machine to work, so Hoppie pointed me in the direction of downloading PuTTY.
I'm now getting an id=1 on my telnet, getting a couple of 2s on my Msg in the PSx Router software. I guess this is progress ! -as i coudln't get it to work before.

what i would like to do next is purchase the FDS-B747 Pro-MX CDU and start playing with that; loading flight releases etc.

recommendations on reading assignments? Homework ? next things to consider as far as what i'll need ?

Thanks for your patience, folks
And to you, Hoppie. Thank you.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

You're welcome!

Just to be sure: you do not need the Router. You can plug anything (such as the CDU) directly into your PC or, more common, via a hardware multiport switch. The Router can be handy for development but is very rarely a requirement.

And you can also run PSX in Client Mode on another PC, or even on the same PC. One of the two is the Server. The other(s) are Clients and will follow the Server. For many applications this by itself is priceless.

The use of TELNET (or PuTTY in raw mode) is also just a debug tool, you for sure don't need it at all when just plugging stuff together.


Hoppie

[voipmeister]

recommendations on reading assignments? Homework ? next things to consider as far as what i'll need ?

You might want to consider creating a DHCP reservation for the main system that acts as a server, or giving it a fixed IP address outside of the DHCP scope. Depending on how often you use the system, the address might expire (if the lease time is less than the interval you turn on the system for instance) and you'd have to figure out what its new IP address is.

By creating a DHCP reservation or configuring a fixed IP address, you'll always know where to connect to with your PSX clients.

If I need to clarify this, just let me know. Happy to help

[Rhetro]

Thank you, Gentlemen!

Ok:
1) An ethernet switch for the hardware -specifically the cdu in this case
just curious ? Aside from another system , what else would plug into the Ethernet switch as far as hardware ? Are there other (more robust) controllers, yoke, throttles that use the ethernet architecture? Or is everyone else just using USB related controllers?

2) lock the ip address or DHCP Reservation for server networking.

3) PuTTY for troubleshooting and debugging network assignments.

I'm guessing a second system would handle internet related online load sharing; or is PSX helped out by a second computer?

would love to take a look at what cockpit builders are using!

I'll take a look around !

cheers !!!

[Rhetro]

Hello
from the limited research I've done, I'm guessing I will be using a system with two processors -this system will be used strictly for the mockup build. The additional processor will be used to distribute the load; multi monitor, video cards, etc. I would also like to have the versatility of having the additional processor to keep bottle neck issues from happening down the line should I need it as I will be experimenting with different controls and hardware as I piece this thing together.
So, one system (main processor) will be the dedicated server (DHCP or fixed reservation outside scope), while the other one follows.
Looks like the CS 747X CDU (v2) is usb. Are there any controllers out there that use RJ45 connectors? Looks like everything is USB these days. I'm guessing just a USB hub?

Primitive questions, I realize.
but thanks for your patience.

[voipmeister]

Hello Rhetro,
You can connect 2 PSX instances to eachother by designate one a server, the other will be a client (which you need to point at the server's IP, so a static/reserved IP is a smart idea). Data exchange will happen between those two automatically once you have set that up.
You can attach USB devices to either of the instances, the manipulation of data will be done over the network. There is no need for every accessory to be networked itself.
Does that answer your question?

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I agree that USB is the main connection option for controllers these days. This is unfortunate as it does not scale, but for most (99.9%) PC users it is great. I would say, if at all possible, try to avoid an external USB hub. An extra fork in the road occasionally causes trouble. A PC with built-in multiple USB ports may be more stable, but the pro cockpit builders will have much more useful advice, I'm sure.


Hoppie

[JG]

Hi Rhetro, Seb and Hoppie are spot on with network design, fixed IP is the only reliable way to get repeat connections at start up. This is so true I have actually abandoned using a router to connect the PSX network and just use a "dumb switch" to connect fixed IP machines set up at an operating system level. For interface to Internet as required, the PSX server or even clients that connect to the outside world for various needs can be set up with fixed IP's on your service provider connected router or set up the IP's of your PSX PC's to be in the same sub-net of your service provider router but outside of the routers DHCP range. You may need to get into your service provider router and change the DHCP range to make this possible.
With regards hardware add-ons. The majority of off the shelf hardware will be a USB interface to align with main stream sim providers. PSX USB interfacing works very well but is limited to popular hardware items because it is designed as an ethernet network platform to allow greater flexibility in its use for the creation of networked hardware and software "goodies".
Generally, you will find ethernet hardware add ons are dearer and require programming at setup. In your example of the FDS verses the CS CDU, with the FDS, there is the added complication of needing to drive the screen of the CDU with the graphics card on the connected PC. With the CS which has only just been made compatible with PSX, the graphics for the screen are generated in the CDU, allowing a single USB connection to PSX via a software bridge as well as quick selection of which CDU you want to look at and control.
CS is also planning PSX support for some of its other hardware add on devices that presumably uses the same software bridge. The software interface has been created with the collaboration of the creator of PSX, and so works extremely well.
Depending on your cockpit plan for the future.....if you are planning a touch screen solution, a grater number of low power PC's with 2-3 graphics outputs will serve you well because you can add more screens as needed. If you're going for a hardware interface solution, be it after market add-ons or OEM modified bits then a few high powered PC's is probably a better option, because you will likely only require 3-5 graphics outputs for PSX displays.
Then you'll need a powerful PC for your windscreen graphics.....there are several solutions here if that is part of your future planning, but this is beyond the scope of the actual PSX network if you're going to use the PSX windscreen or a totally separate platform for scenery generation.
Hope this helps.
J.G.

[Rhetro]

Quadfan: the two PSX are to divide the labor; thereby using the different processors/(or computers), as opposed to one instance of PSX controlling everything, correct? One being the server with designated static ip address, the other being the client (slaved) to the server.

Hoppie: Using a multi port pci card internally. Got it.
What about using an Arduino card to control scaling for USB controllers ?  Wondering if this is possible (Way above my pay grade at this point)

JG: I see what you mean about the fixed IP address. I guess this keeps you from needing to reconfigure every time you boot up the system (cockpit). I would probably also need to get a different (non internet provider router) which will 1) be more powerful, and 2), allow me the versatility of selecting outside of DHCP range. (Thought about getting a different more powerful router anyway).
I see what you mean about having different touchscreens (they are all individually controlled as separate computers, i.e., multiple iPads (touchscreens) handling their own video processing.
Or
Having the system processors drive the 3-5 flat panels...
I like the multiple low power PC to control touch screen idea...That may be the place to start. If I "can't stand it" on the touch screen, I break out into the hardware ala CS with the software bridge.
 However, I am very tempted now to get their CDU. Just heard back from them as I'm going to be in Hong Kong in a couple of days -but they don't have a rep available this short notice. It was just an idea. Wanted to see one. But i'm probably just going to bite the bullet and get it. I need to start practicing with it!

I'm guessing flat panel touchscreens have finally caught up.
 I used to go for recurrent in the Citation X and they had a flat panel mockup of the cockpit -but it NEVER worked. It was always locking up (but this was about 7 years ago now). You were better off just flowing using the damn paper posters...

Need to find the people here that have paved the way with the cockpit builds!
Cheers, guys. Thank you.

[JG]

It is all about budget and how far you want your realism to go. With PSX you can fly with a single laptop or interface it into an actual 744 flight deck. If your budget allows a cockpit mock up but will not extend to a real cockpit, you will end up using touch screens during the evolution of your system. The touch interface for PSX is very good but obviously the tactile feel for flight controls, throttle, MCP, EFIS and CDU is desirable. My build is a hybrid of touch and tactile, the MIP, overhead, P6 Breakers and pedestal is all touch. So tactile for flight controls, throttle, MCP, EFIS and CDU's as well as tactile controls for frequency selection on the RCP's. The PSX touch capability for all other items I have found to be very adequate with no hangs or wrong selections evident.....unless I do something stupid.
The CS CDU's have just recently been added.....I love them, they're the ducks nuts! They are USB, I do run them with a USB hub, but they start correctly every time, I suspect this is because the CS software bridge provides a virtual TCP IP interface into PSX. I'm with Hoppie on the USB connection for flight controls.....direct to the PC is the only reliable way because often a hub will allocate ports differently and you need to reconfigure your controls randomly depending on how the ports wake up.
Cheers J.G.

[voipmeister]

Quadfan: the two PSX are to divide the labor; thereby using the different processors/(or computers), as opposed to one instance of PSX controlling everything, correct? One being the server with designated static ip address, the other being the client (slaved) to the server.

Yes, correct. This also allows for scaling of screens or USB devices: e.g. if you need another USB connection but one PC has all USB ports in use, you can use a port on the 2nd machine. The USB device would need to be configured in the PSX instance running on that machine ofcourse.

It is possible to use USB hubs, but if you do you'd need to go for the industrial ones with an adequate power supply. Using the PC's USB ports is preferred as Hoppie indicates, as you don't want to troubleshoot a buggy cheap USB hub. Cheap ones will never be satisfying.

Please note that addons don't need to be running on a PC that is running PSX: I suspect that the CS CDU bridge software needs to be pointed to a valid PSX instance so it could be running on a third PC even (without a PSX instance running, as you connect over the network.
PSX's networking capabilities are the best and very well designed!

Hope this helps for designing your setup.

[Rhetro]

Excellent! I now have a great place to start.
I'm thinking a hybrid as well; focusing on a
- CPU(s) (with dual processors) AMD/INTEL (does PSX care?), multi port USB cards, pertinent software with internal networking (looks like PSX is a very robust sys)
- TACTILE: for yoke, throttle, mcp, cdu(CS), (maybe EFIS)
- TOUCHSCREENS for overhead and center pedestal.
- 3 panels (or probably and more realistically: one long curved panel) for scenery
- one smaller LCD panel for PFD/ND.
I'm also somewhat limited to single left seat ops for real estate concerns in the room i'm using.

By the way: what are people using for MCPs ? They seem difficult to find ! Have people made them custom, or does one just wait in line until they become available?
I realize that one can just pretend with MCPs from other AC, but haven't been able to find them for the 744 -unless they pop up used.

I realize this is opening up another subject: But can I get some guidance on a parts list. You've obviously pave the way for what works (albeit subjective for you, i realize), and what doesn't work. My budget can accommodate what I've listed.

open to any advice on the above (or PM me to keep the traffic down)!

You gentlemen have been most helpful!
Thanks again,
cheers!

[voipmeister]

By the way: what are people using for MCPs ? They seem difficult to find ! Have people made them custom, or does one just wait in line until they become available?
I realize that one can just pretend with MCPs from other AC, but haven't been able to find them for the 744 -unless they pop up used.

TL;DR: buy some supported 737 MCP if you want to get your flying to be tactile quick.

There are no off the shelf MCP products available. CPFlight and FDS used to sell theirs, but both have stopped producing/selling them. Used ones are hard to come by. This is why I am building my own MCP, based on the Opencockpits panel. I have everything working (code wise), it 'just' needs to be put together in a box and it turns out I suck at that. I have no 3D printer and no experience with CAD stuff and learning it is not a desired hobby of mine. I have other interests and a full time job, so this will take some more time and is not ready for sharing.

The code is working beautifully though it seems...

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

If you mostly need an alu panel with proper holes and engravings (i.e., no backlit lettering) then this is a relevant option:
https://www.frontpanelexpress.com/about-us  (USA)
https://www.schaeffer-ag.de/en/  (EU)

I've been using their CAD software and please-CNC-this button in it for years at work. The software is a breeze and 99% true WYSIWYG. No it isn't airplane and it isn't very cheap but it gets the job done if you are not yet ready for deeper digging than a bunch of switches and displays in a box.

They also have box frames.


Hoppie

[JG]

Hello chaps, yes MCP's are a problem. I embarked on this journey a year ago and the experience is documented here. topic,7356.0.html
The short version is I ended up using Simulator Solutions electronics hardware because of their excellent support and direct TCP IP interface to PSX, This was used with Open Cockpits panels and my own design for interface boards and bent metal concentric rotary switches and encoders. I used CAD to create window dressing bezels and masks for IAS and Mach as well as labels for Caution/Warning cancel buttons. Then off the shelf knobs and 3D print for the VS wheel. I'm pretty sure Rod @ SS was really happy when it was finally all going and he could be rid of me, but he was really helpful! The bonus for me is the SS ability to interface to Hardy's careful emulation of power and lamp control systems, you don't get this with Open Cockpits and SIOC to the best of my knowledge.....but I'm happy to be called out on that one.
Seb, it isn't a big deal to modify a standard 2 RU rack box for your MCP, the width is the same the height needs 8mm shaved off it.
Scenery monitors.....Hmmm, I'm using 2 x 16/9 curved screens for forward view and 32/9 aspect monitors for port and starboard side views. The geometry is impossible to get perfect but a really good and flyable representation is do-able using MSFS 2020 and a 4070ti GPU.....not looked at MSFS 2024 yet. 
J.G.

[voipmeister]

Hoppie, thanks for the suggestion. I'll look into this.

JG, yeah I figured some old Cisco >2821 router case might work... Maybe I should try to find one and try it out.

[Rhetro]

Well,
Damn the luck. Can't have everything I suppose ;/
Although boutique builders with laser engravers, cnc routers, and metal benders seem to spring eternal these days. A rabbit hole that would involve much more time than I have these days -perhaps later on. So touch screens and rotary encoders. Or play pretend with some other AC MCP that is available will have to work -for now.

Does anyone know if there would be a conflict with a non-744 mcp and psx?

[JG]

Hi Rhetro, If it were me I'd wait a little while for CS to do this..... Accessories topic 744 MCP control using Cockpit Simulator's 737 MCP. This would be the only quick and sure way to get a good result....I'm sure there are clever soles out there who have already done similar interfacing.....but if you're going CS CDU's it seem logical to go with their MCP and EFIS too.
They were aiming for a release of this CS bridge software extension for MCP and EFIS some time this month.
J.G.

[Rhetro]

Thanks JG,
sounds like prudent advice. I'll hold off; perhaps touch screens and rotary encoders for now, then work my way up!

Much appreciated !

[Kurt]

I'm guessing flat panel touchscreens have finally caught up.
 I used to go for recurrent in the Citation X and they had a flat panel mockup of the cockpit -but it NEVER worked. It was always locking up (but this was about 7 years ago now). You were better off just flowing using the damn paper posters...

Need to find the people here that have paved the way with the cockpit builds!
Cheers, guys. Thank you.

Hi Rhetro

I have also build a fullsize complete PSX cockpit based on a nice mix of touchscreens and physical controls. Key for me is to have physical controls for allmost all the controls you are using most of the time when flying and rely on the amazing PSX touch functionality for the rest.

My journey has been long - maybe too long if you ask my wife (who still mentions in social gatherings that I for years had 9 old 14" crt´s filling up in our apartment to use as CRT´s for all PS1 744 displays back in early 2000´s (predesessor to PSX) ) They ended up in the recycling bin.....

I had the dream of building my 744 cockpit since 2001 when I got PS1 and despite many vague attempts over the years I only really got going after trying out PSX on touchscreens some years back.... Now approx 2-3 years later I have a full 1-1 sized PSX based 744 cockpit at home down to the last PSX knob/CB directly accessible

The implementation of touch in PSX just works - Only detail to be aware of is that only one touch interaction per PC used is possible at any given time PER PC which limits 2 crew operations where you have to interact simultanously.

So touch is fine as long as you only interact with one knob, one rotary, one button etc at a time per PC Again perfectly fine in my setup as I am the only one using it even though it is a full 1:1 CPT and F/O setup.

I have spread my 4 PSX instances over 2 PC´s with 7 and 4 touchscreens respectively (7 for glare, pedestal and P6 CB panel and 4 for complete owerhead) and thereby having the full 744 available in touch/physical at exact dimensions in my setup.

Even though it is approx 2 years since I really picked up the speed building -  it can go way faster as it is very easy to setup PSX in a touch environment. The reason for my sim taking so long is constant scope creep and no real plans/blue prints other than simple basic measurements of the real 744 cockpit - I have constantly evolved the sim adding more physical controls (via the amazing simstack boards) and upped the aestehics by covering every panel in nice Boeing brown artificial leather

If you go for touch then a full size PSX based 744 can be done in weeks for the bare sim (if you have the PC´s and displays needed) where the hard part is to mount the monitors in the right positions in space.
My initial mock up 2 years ago was just using cardboard boxes and standard monitor mounts to have approximate representation of the 744 - I remember my first Vatsim flights back then as the most rewarding as it was the first time I really felt I was in some sort of real cockpit

My main recommendations after all this are:

1:
If working with touchscreens then cover your pedestal with thick carpet and pillows when working on the overhead panel - the last 4 months I have destroyed 3 - yes three - Dell 24 Inch touchscreens due to dropping stuff when working on overhead ....

2:
Get physical controls for the main parts - I have the following:
Full MCP with Dual EFIS and EICAS (Aerosoft Australia units from 2002ish but it works perfectly ) I know very hard to get
Yoke, (TM Boeing yoke) - will be exchanged to PFC Yokes this year
Rudderpedals with functioning brakes (TM Pendular)
Throttles, Flaps, Speedbrake and reversers (Dual TM Boeing quadrants currently)
All 3 Overhead lighting panels. outer glareshields, rudder/aileron trim panels etc interfaced via simstack (on opencockpit panels)
CDU´s - get the CS ones if you can afford - they are 99% exact replicas of the real NG CDU´s  - most expensive HW i got for my sim but also one of the most "immersionelevating" things you can do beside getting the physical MCP.

3:
Split the sim applications over several PC´s- try to keep the one you run the external world simulation (FS2020,2024, P3D, Xplane) as clean as possible with only the bare minimum of other aplications running.  (FS2024 is not as sensitive compared to FS2020 and I can easily run a PSX client along side FS2024 which I definately will not do on FS2020)

As PSX SIM PC´s I have one PC with one GFX card (4 displays) running the full Overhead. Secondly I have the main PSX server PC with 2 GFX cards running full Glare, full Pedestal and P6 panel accoss 7 displays.

4:
Go for 3 PCs for PSX if you want the full 6 channel audio routing experience as PSX currently have no audio mixer for multichanel outputs (ast least I have not been able to get windows 11 to route 2 different PSX instances on same PC to two sets of stereo outputs yet)
Currenly I use only 4 channels but will move to full 6 channels in spring..

5:
Decide on a plan upfront - the time I have spend reworking stuff the last year is insane as I have basically build the road as I was walking on it - constantly reassembling and reworking stuff....

I have tried out many different arhcitectures the last years (everything from one PC per PSX window to 4 instances of PSX across 7 monitors on 2 GFX cards on one PC including FS2020 on 85" tv on the last HDMI port - NOT recommended ) on how to deploy PSX servers and clients and FS2020 (now FS2024) as outside view and can say that I think I have found a nice costeffective setup that still delivers an extreme smooth experience accros all applications that is needed for a full PSX based Cockpit experience with the full monty of auxilary applications.

6:
Ask in the forum - such a supportive bunch of people.

Let me know if you need further details..

Cheers and best regards

Kurt

PS: PC systems I use:

Main PSX PC: (AMD 5950x with RTX 4060 and RTX 3060 to be able to connect up to 8 monitors) with two PSX instances (main server with boost and one client) and the following apps running: PSX Router, BACARS, ACARS PRINT, CS Bridge (for CDU's), PSX Vibrate, PSX-CMC, SIMSTACK Switch, vPilot remote and streamdeck app for aux commands.

Secondary PSX PC:  (AMD 5600 with old GTX1070 to 4 1080p monitors) running 2 PSX client instances (could use just one but as I have 90 degree rotated CB monitors I have to use 2 PSX client instances), PSX.NET.Sounds, PSX.NET.GROUND, I also use this PC as my flight planning station with printer etc.

Main scenery FS2024 PC: (AMD 5800X3d with RTX 3090) where I run vPilot host, PSXT to fill out traffic when Vatsim is sparse, PSX.NET.WASM, PSX.NET.EFB (will be moved to a Getac F110 Tablet when I receive it this Friday )

(Aerosoft MCP with dual EFIS and Eicas is currently interfaced via an old HP laptop as this is the only way to get it working for me )

Everything is extremely stable currently and it takes only a couple of minutes to get everything set. Longest time is actually loading FS2024 - everything else is up and running before that.

Plans for the year is:

1: Upgrade scenery visuals from one 85" tv to 3 short throw projectors to get 210 degree vision
2: Upgrade the toy TM boeing yokes to dual replica yokes
3: Fly a lot   as i now since a couple of weeks have finished phase one where I have the full featured PSX cockpit available and dont feel I miss anything (other than a motion platform -  but that will only be possible after I move in many years from now .....)
4: Transition to full 6channel audio - I got the speakers but using a High End Lyngdorf amp for buttons and gyro etc is waaaaaay overkill- so need to get a cheap amp.
5: Fly a lot even more - just love flying on Vatsim with high probability of PSX malfunctions - keeps the fun high and dusts off the QRH and other checklists

Cheers