Customizable towing?

[andrej]

IF ... I say IF ... I start that task, YOU guys are obligated to be a beta tester!

Deal!

[voipmeister]

So let the games begin, or better: raise your hands to voice your interest in this please.

* raises hand * 

[B747-400]

It seems like only a fraction of the community is interested in such a tool.

How do everyone else launch their flights? PSX internal push, on the RWY, other tools?

I'd be very interested to know how you solve this, especially the guys with a full-size sim.

Best regards
Hans

[macroflight]

I'm definitely interested in better pushback (and willing to help out). Today I use either the built-in PSX pushback (usually triggered by USB buttons on my joystick via frankenusb) OR Gary's PSX.NET.EFB.

My proposal: we make something modular that allows several people to contribute different parts of the whole.

The core component would be a pushback truck that listens to addon= messages on the PSX network and moves the PSX plane accordingly. E.g

addon=TRUCK:BACK:<speed> - push the aircraft backwards at the given speed (speed defaults to the normal PSX speed)
addon=TRUCK:FORWARD:<speed> - pull the aircraft forwards
addon=TRUCK:STOP:<after> - stop after having moved a certain distance (default to immediate stop)
addon=TRUCK:TURN:STRAIGHT - straighten up the truck and push straight
addon=TRUCK:TURN:NOSELEFT:<rate> - turn nose left (or right if NOSERIGHT given) at the given rate (rate could default to the normal PSX rate)

If we want to make it easy to integrate with e.g PSX Sounds, we could add a few more standardized messages like addon=TRUCK:CONNECT and RELEASE (those would not cause the tow truck to do anything but can be picked up by other addons and e.g trigger sounds).

It should also be possible to give the tow truck a path to follow, e.g

addon=TRUCK:PATH:BACK,lat,lon,hdg:BACK,lat,lon,hdg,FORWARD,lat,lon,hdg

I.e a list of lat/lon points and target headings. The truck would push/pull and turn the aircraft as to arrive at the next point facing in the requested direction and stop when reaching the final point.

With the above set of addon= messages, it would be trivial to write another addon that uses a database of pushback paths (e.g from GSX if we can figure out how to get data from it) and lets the user choose one and sends it to the pushback truck.

Another type of addon that would be easy to make is an airport map (maybe in the EFB?) where you can draw your desired pushback path and then send it to the tow truck.

It would also be easy to make improved interfaces for manual towing (e.g in CDU C, the EFB or using USB devices).

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

When developing my own tug 20 years ago, I didn't use lat/long coordinates at all, as those typically are rather difficult to figure out. Instead I used something simpler that relies on a few tries, assuming that you need a few tries anyway.

I used a standard speed, standard acceleration, and therefore predictable and repeatable displacement that can be defined with just one parameter: time in seconds.

push back 13 seconds
then right turn nose to final heading 40 degrees while still pushing
then push back 5 more seconds
then stop.

With the fixed acceleration/deceleration/turning rates, this becomes repeatable and quite easy to get right.

Just to add some experience. Does not mean it is the best way to do it.

[B747-400]

I downloaded some GSX profiles. As far as I know, GSX can handle up to 9 coordinates (or nodes, as they call it). I checked GSX profiles (KORD, EDDF, LDZA). The format is not complicated. In all cases, the plane stood way too close to, or (with the nose) in the terminal. So, without adjustment of the nodes it won't work properly.

The 747 has a turn radius of about 26 m. PSXs internal model only supports about 66 m. So, without external "support" we can't handle it solely by letting PSX do it. I understand, that PSX is not a pushback simulator, but despite that fact, it would be great if Hardy would consider adjusting PSXs push to a realistic turn radius (where is Santa 😉)

I went the way with a coordinate path system: Start:First:Second:...:Final. As visible in the video (Repos Gui). My pushback tool goes thru the list sequentially. Of course GSX ini files could be read and converted into my format. I tried that today.

My goal, that I achieved so far is: I do not want to deal with any entry during my flight, despite entering ICAO and Gate (if available) in the CDU Pos page. Everything else must be fully automated upon calling the tug.

Where is now my "problem"? My calculation and support of PSX internal pushback is way to inaccurate. I need to find out how to precisely calculate the turn-points and support of internal tool.

Moving the plane solely with an external tool, the plane moves, but GS still shows 0.

Of course, having an more or less open tug platform, accepting external commands etc., would be perfect. As well as a GSX like positioning tool etc. The best would be: reading MSFSs internal scenery files, extracting taxiways and use them for pushback. BATC does this for their ATC. So, here we need a skilled developer, who knows all the tipps and tricks of scenery internals ...

BR
Hans

[asboyd]

I would like to use GSX, but as I am firmly opposing MSFS, I use P3D. Most bridges do not allow switching between PSX or P3D being the data source. (IE P3D and GSX move the aircraft and PSX follows, once positioned you change to PSX as the source and it takes over positioning of the aircraft).
If I had the time I would look into making a bridge that would do this, but I am sure there are others that have already invested time in building the bridge.

Cheers,
AlexB

[JG]

Good morning Hans, I would register my interest in the pushback tool.

It seems like only a fraction of the community is interested in such a tool.

How do everyone else launch their flights? PSX internal push, on the RWY, other tools?

I'd be very interested to know how you solve this, especially the guys with a full-size sim.

Best regards
Hans

At this time I am not in a position to contribute and so haven't added to the subject. It is encouraging to see the community giving thought to this type of add on and I will continue to follow any progress with keen interest.
Cheers, J.G.

[B747-400]

I would like to use GSX, ... (IE P3D and GSX move the aircraft and PSX follows, once positioned you change to PSX as the source and it takes over positioning of the aircraft)...

That would be excellent, but it seems at there is no feasable way to do that ... 

[B747-400]

It is encouraging to see the community giving thought to this type of add on and I will continue to follow any progress with keen interest.

Yes, let's see how it goes ...
Cheers

[asboyd]

B747-400, Wide PSX had the option to have P3D or PSX as the main data source. So it must be possible...
Just a shame Wide PSX is no longer supported.

Cheers,
AlexB

[macroflight]

My proposal: we make something modular that allows several people to contribute different parts of the whole.

A quick proof of concept - a tug controlled by addon messages and a separate CDU interface to control it:

https://github.com/macroflight/psxhacks/blob/testing/frankentow.py
https://github.com/macroflight/psxhacks/blob/testing/frankentow_cdu.py

It cannot follow a preprogrammed path, but it can do tighter turns then the built-in pushback system (selectable turn radius) and also has a slew mode for positioning at the gate.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Let's open a Pandora box.

I think you use the *asterisks* to indicate which mode/function is currently active.

This is an eternal issue as the ARINC 739A MCDUs do not have a really good way to show this, especially not when in monochrome format. I've seen attempts to do something with LARGE FONT indicating "selectable, but not active," and small font for "selected, active". Which is sort of logical and sort of not. Colours, with for example magenta active and cyan selectable. Dropping the < caret off the one that has been selected. And on later model airplanes, all kinds of attempts to use arrows to indicate toggle switches.

If there is space, then <SELECT OFF when the thing is on, and <SELECT ON when it is off, usually works.

In this case you may want to try for example:

Code Select Expand

<PULL FORWARD
<STOP
 pushing back

Hoppie

PS. The idea to split into a separate tug and controller is very nice!

[SwissMark]

A quick proof of concept - a tug controlled by addon messages and a separate CDU interface to control it:

https://github.com/macroflight/psxhacks/blob/testing/frankentow.py
https://github.com/macroflight/psxhacks/blob/testing/frankentow_cdu.py

It cannot follow a preprogrammed path, but it can do tighter turns then the built-in pushback system (selectable turn radius) and also has a slew mode for positioning at the gate.

As Dwight from The Office would say:

Question! Would this Nose Left and Right work in itself or is a pre-requisite to define X-amount of meters?

Thanks and nice Sunday

Mark

[B747-400]

Thanks for the POC, macroflight!

Mark, I installed it on my test rig. If you press PUSH BACK it pushes back until you press STOP. Press NOSE LEFT / RIGHT additionally, the plane turns the given direction and radius in 6R.

I tried that with my tool as well (as mentioned before) unfortunately the GS keeps saying 0 and the plane is not that smooth as the internal push. Depending on airport (I tested it at LOWW and KIMA) upon starting / stopping push, the plane goes slightly over or under ground level, also visible from cockpit view. No criticism, macroflight, just my observation with both, your and my tool tests!

That's why I decided to use PSXs internal push.

BR
Hans

[SwissMark]

Servus Hans and thank you. Understood. It would be a great option to have the option to also "just" use the Nose Left/Right LSK keys to move the 747 - could swap to outside view and manipulate the active CDU with FRANKENTOW accordingly.

Follow-up question please: can PSX send to the WASM aircraft SIMVAR for the respective movements?
If yes, then the Aerosoft Pushback Pro Tool can allow for a PSX profile to be created - I would establish this profile, as long as I know if the SIMVAR (Sim variables?) can be sent by PSX/WASM 747.
(Aerosoft wrote to me last night with that question and sent me to how-to for creating a custom profile for PSX for their tool)

Have a great week everyone - yes, it is Monday again. 

[Gary Oliver]

The problem is any application that writes to MSFS will not work - the WASM module writes the position of PSX on every single draw frame in MSFS and PSX will not be matching.

At the end of the day I would rather put development time into working with either Hans or Macros pushback solution which drives PSX than making WASM changes to support an MSFS to PSX bodge.  The WASM module uses a lot of magic math to make everything so smooth, and trying to decouple and then recouple this is going to be a headache.

I understand for desktop that clicking around in the MSFS window is fine, but for my use case of a big sim I'd rather invest in the time and effort to do it properly driving PSX and controlled from the PSX.NET.EFB with a nice screen showing a map and allowing the user to drag a pushback path which links into a database of gates that improves over time when people in the community add their pushbacks through a UI.

@Hardy - Would you consider adding a variable to allow us to set the turn radius, which I think basically means increasing the heading change rate?  I notice right now that the tiller variable is 400 during the pushback, could we have a variable to choose this from an addon? 

Cheers
G

[SwissMark]

rather invest in the time and effort to do it properly driving PSX and controlled from the PSX.NET.EFB with a nice screen showing a map and allowing the user to drag a pushback path which links into a database of gates that improves over time when people in the community add their pushbacks through a UI.

Agree totally that would be the universally ideal application. I can not code, but I offer my time with supporting such a development with testing, voices etc.

Perhaps a further development of the PSX.NET.EFB with the already built-in Navigraph (assuming that nearly everyone with PSX has a Navigraph subscription) to draw/decide on the various push-back options per stand and pushback instructions by ATC.

Cheers

Mark

[Hardy Heinlin]

@Hardy - Would you consider adding a variable to allow us to set the turn radius ...

I'll check if I can test whether or not it's possible to be able to consider it ...

[Gary Oliver]

Mark,

Exactly that!

Hardy,

Thank you

Cheers
G