News:

Precision Simulator update 10.175 (29 May 2024) is now available.
Navburo update 13 (23 November 2022) is now available.
NG FMC and More is released.

Main Menu

Layout Resource for PSX & Scenery Generator viewed on the same monitor

Started by cavaricooper, Sat, 11 Mar 2023 19:42

Will

I don't have MSFS, but from what I've seen online, all of the pilot's views, regardless of the aircraft, have that wide angle look to them. It's like you're looking through the wrong end of binoculars. Up close, everything is magnified, but what is in the middle distance recedes away to a vanishing point.

I don't know what the MSFS design crew was thinking; maybe the idea is that you get some peripheral vision by having a wide angle look at what's close to you. Or else, maybe they felt it adds to the "drama" to have the closest features loom comparatively large and rich in detail.

But I agree with Hardy, a more telephoto look of the outside world seems more like what the human eye sees when sitting in the cockpit.
Will /Chicago /USA

cavaricooper

Thanks SO much Hardy. I will try again when I return from making little rocks out of big ones later today. Meanwhile any tips from others wrestling with this very issue are welcome.

Will- you could have hit the nail on the head w/MSFS. Still, the experience is richer AND SMOOTHER than ever before, and I shall continue the chase towards perfection.

More to follow...

C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Iadbound

This is turning into a must-read thread. I have been tinkering with my views as well and noticing some effects in MSFS (in particular) where the view is reminiscent of a fish-eye lens.  This is where having something like the Salty 747 with a frame can be very helpful.  Regardless, I'll try to add something here if I can get the combination right.

Hardy Heinlin

In other words, one factor to consider is how parallel the left and right runway edges appear. The more parallel, the more rectangle-like is the entire shape (tele lens). The opposite is the pyramid-like shape (wide angle lense). So this factor is about the distortion.

The other important factor is the size; the size of the monitor. When I sit one arm's length in front of my 27" iMac, the left monitor edge is circa 30 arc degress from the center. Here's a quick way to check arc degrees: https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/measuring-the-sky-by-hand.html

In those typical MSFS settings, as Will described, you see things near your monitor edges that are actually much more than 30 arc degrees away from the center. The zoom should be so high that such objects get out of view. This may be a problem on mini screens; it may feel like looking through a little hole of an icing Boeing window. But if your monitor is about as large as a 747 front window, just zoom in and crop that side stuff.


|-|

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Exactly -- without your swiveling head and side windows, it does feel like a pipe you're looking through. I suppose that this is exactly why people love the fisheye lens.

cavaricooper

Ok - this is where I am TODAY...

Hardy- I confess that it is indeed much slower and correctable and comfortable at this greater zoom...the buildings look more natural and I am hoping that the sight picture is more of what you suggested?

I am  little concerned that I am looking too far down, but in the last photo you will see that the horizon is still at eye level and halfway up the monitor when all wheels are rolling- so it "might" be ok....?

On the runway at TPA 19R


Approaching 1L 800' and 4.3DME


700' and 4 DME getting low on the PAPIs


500' and 3.4 DME


300' and 2.7 DME manual flight on the PAPIs


200' and 2.4 DME on the PAPIs


Nose wheel on the runway and rolling out


Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

cavaricooper

Hardy-

For your commentary- manual flight on PAPIs at DH TPA 1L


Many, many thanks for working through this with me.  I never wanted to get my Scenery this correct, as I never flew it long enough to bother, always going back to stand alone PSX.  MSFS.NET has moved my goal posts. I do this this looks much closer to what you suggested....?

C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: cavaricooper on Tue, 21 Mar 2023 23:32I am  little concerned that I am looking too far down

You're looking too far up. Your window is 80 % filled with sky. Why don't you look down? On approach, the important stuff is below you. Yes, the attitude indicator should be calibrated with pitch zero in the center. But there's no reason to do the same with the scenery screen.

Also note that the front panel of the 747 is not 90° vertical. It's tilted. If it were 90° vertical, your view on the screenshot may look good. But in real life it's tilted nose down. And your scenery view should tilt with it in the opposite direction, i.e. show more ground. You may tilt your TV as well :-)

cavaricooper

Ok- back to the drawing board :)

here I am on the piano keys


and here I am manually flying on PAPIs at DH (it is REALLY getting closer nicht??)


Thanks again Hardy!

C

PS- once I hammer through this I am happy to share the camera.cfg for PSX.NET...
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Hardy Heinlin

On your last screenshot, above the MCP, you still have 2/3 sky and only 1/3 ground. It looks like the view of a child sitting on the lap of the captain, with the child's eyes at the height of the captain's nipples. I would make that 1/3 sky and 2/3 ground.

cavaricooper

Ok, I will lower the view even more. Both the shots are at the same position, so I must try and find a compromise that works for taxi, level flight AND approach.

More once I am back from the Salt Mines.

Ta- C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Iadbound

I'll be interested in Hardy's and others' opinions on this view from 500 RA. Ignore the warnings and state of the plane.  I started from a take-off position on the ground and kept adjusting my height, etc.  That process caused all kinds of trouble. 
https://imgur.com/a/P2QF0H6

Hardy Heinlin

Looks good to me. Just by looking at this tele lens view on your screenshot I can already feel the "slow motion" during landing which makes the aircraft control so much easier. In wide angle lens view it would feel like landing at 300 kt groundspeed, and users wonder why the control is so difficult.

Hardy Heinlin

When we look at those spherical projection screens on the big sims, we see that the sphere part looks like a part of a coffee cup. Above the cup there is no further sphere material. So the most part of the screen is just "look-down". There's not much sky too see as the coffee cup ends shortly above the horizon. This "look-down" area is the relevant part for flight training. And when users want to fly just for sightseeing, then they'll get more scenery to see this way as well. Combat pilots may want to see more sky. But we're on an airliner.


Iadbound

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Wed, 22 Mar 2023 13:32Looks good to me. Just by looking at this tele lens view on your screenshot I can already feel the "slow motion" during landing which makes the aircraft control so much easier. In wide angle lens view it would feel like landing at 300 kt groundspeed, and users wonder why the control is so difficult.

Hardy, thanks.  Your feedback is helpful.  For those that want to know what I did in MSFS here are the short strokes:

1. Cockpit Camera Selection: Landing (versus say Wide)
2. Height: 70 -- this is with the WASM/PSX 747 from Gary.
3. Zoom: 71
4. I angled the camera down a bit as well (no exact figure for that I'm afraid).

The picture is at 500 ft RA (obviously) coming into iniBuilds EGLL 27L.


Hardy Heinlin

If you set the height to 70 ft (to be able to zoom in and get rid of the wide-angle distortion), shouldn't you also displace your lateral view point at least 100 ft towards the tail? So that the line of sight will intersect the true flight deck location in 3D space?

Iadbound

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Wed, 22 Mar 2023 18:10If you set the height to 70 ft (to be able to zoom in and get rid of the wide-angle distortion), shouldn't you also displace your lateral view point at least 100 ft towards the tail? So that the line of sight will intersect the true flight deck location in 3D space?

Good question.  I don't know enough about the camera positioning in MSFS to answer that, but I feel like it's probably still about right.  I'll need to do some testing vis-a-vis the PSX view.

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

#37
I think it does not help that we all look at the 65" TV here. Maybe we should look at a small part of it.

A few YT videos with reasonably relevant views:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EafvR607kb0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7g0xL88ebXs


cavaricooper

Hoppie- I do believe that is a valid point.... here is where I am today- I have zoomed in as much as it will allow and I have tilted down about as much as I can bear...the sky is less than 1/3 of the monitor space.

Here I am in taxi


Manual flight at DH on the PAPIs


....and roll out


I do think that when focusing on the area just above the PFD it looks appropriate, however, I'm on this journey for the duration.  I'd love for one of our RW drivers to chime in about how close it looks to what they see daily...

Here's a screen grab of just the salient bit.....


VERSUS


or


Maybe I'm mixing my metaphors :)

Thanks- C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

cavaricooper

If there are any following along running a 4k screen... and want to go down this rabbit hole with me...

THIS camera.cfg at 0.9 zoom

[VERSION]
major=1
minor=0
[CAMERADEFINITION.0]
Title="1"
Guid="{504D2D57-1E5C-4CE6-9121-4DD31EEA6431}"
UITitle="1"
Description=""
Origin="Virtual Cockpit"
Track="None"
TargetCategory="None"
ClipMode="Normal"
SnapPbhAdjust="None"
PanPbhAdjust="None"
XyzAdjust=0
ShowAxis="NO"
AllowZoom=1
InitialZoom=0.096031
SmoothZoomTime=5
BoundingBoxRadius=0.1
ShowWeather=0
CycleHidden=0
CycleHideRadius=0
ShowPanel=0
MomentumEffect=0
ShowLensFlare=0
PanPbhReturn=0
SnapPbhReturn=1
InstancedBased=0
NoSortTitle=0
Transition=0
Category="Cockpit"
SubCategory="Custom"
SubCategoryItem="None"
InitialXyz= 0.000001, -0.000003, -0.000011
InitialPbh= -5.55411, -0.000607, -1.460848
[CAMERADEFINITION.1]
Title="3"
Guid="{C9809E3F-C0D6-42E9-B88B-D02F9F42C2CF}"
UITitle="3"
Description=""
Origin="Virtual Cockpit"
Track="None"
TargetCategory="None"
ClipMode="Normal"
SnapPbhAdjust="None"
PanPbhAdjust="None"
XyzAdjust=0
ShowAxis="NO"
AllowZoom=1
InitialZoom=0.236504
SmoothZoomTime=5
BoundingBoxRadius=0.1
ShowWeather=0
CycleHidden=0
CycleHideRadius=0
ShowPanel=0
MomentumEffect=0
ShowLensFlare=0
PanPbhReturn=0
SnapPbhReturn=1
InstancedBased=0
NoSortTitle=0
Transition=0
Category="Cockpit"
SubCategory="Custom"
SubCategoryItem="None"
InitialXyz= 0.000002, -0.000005, -0.00003
InitialPbh= 1.668669, -0.217492, -88.78727
[CAMERADEFINITION.2]
Title="4"
Guid="{ADF1F5D0-CFB0-4243-9AA9-D877A61B101D}"
UITitle="4"
Description=""
Origin="Virtual Cockpit"
Track="None"
TargetCategory="None"
ClipMode="Normal"
SnapPbhAdjust="None"
PanPbhAdjust="None"
XyzAdjust=0
ShowAxis="NO"
AllowZoom=1
InitialZoom=0.200962
SmoothZoomTime=5
BoundingBoxRadius=0.1
ShowWeather=0
CycleHidden=0
CycleHideRadius=0
ShowPanel=0
MomentumEffect=0
ShowLensFlare=0
PanPbhReturn=0
SnapPbhReturn=1
InstancedBased=0
NoSortTitle=0
Transition=0
Category="Cockpit"
SubCategory="Custom"
SubCategoryItem="None"
InitialXyz= 0.000003, -0.000007, -0.000045
InitialPbh= -4.570858, 0.344749, 89.543716

PRODUCES THIS VIEW


Off to fly something other than this scenario :)

Thoughts and opinions welcome, and solicited!

Ta- C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA