No ATIS Using Navigraph at Some Airports

[RRVyper]

I haven't used PSX in a while  and today I saw there was an update from Sunday so decided to do a quick flight after updating. However, I noticed that there was no ATIS broadcast at the airport I was departing from (CYWG - 120.200). I was still selected to an older Navigraph database so switched to the latest one (2204) but still didn't hear ATIS. I was able to contact Ground, though. I switched back to the default Nav Data and ATIS came alive.

I tried some other airports using Navigraph 2204. CYYC was fine, as was CYVR, but CYQQ - 118.600 was dead. I switched to Navigraph 2112 and CYQQ ATIS came back (but was missing for 2113 through 2204). Can someone else confirm this? Hardy - can you determine if this is bad Navigraph data or is it PSX not reading the file correctly? Or is it something I failed to do. It does sound like a Navigraph issue. The ATIS frequency shows correctly on the Analysis/Airport Instructor tab.

Thanks.

Randy

[Hardy Heinlin]

I can't check Navigraph as I don't have it.

The ATIS stations displayed on the Analysis page should be receivable in the sim as well when your aircraft is in the respective line-of-sight position.

Important: When you switch databases on the About page, the airport data displayed on the Analysis page will not automatically refresh. You need to enter a different airport and then re-enter the desired airport to see the data of the selected database.

So you if you want to check whether that ATIS is truly in the selected database, you need to refresh the Airport page manually.

The reason an ATIS station is not audible in another database could also be a different station elevation as this affects the line-of-sight geometry.


Regards,

|-|ard

[andrej]

Hello Randy,

out of interest, I tried as you asked. For Database 2112, I am able to receive ATIS on 118.600. For 2113, and 2204, I do not hear anything.



I checked Navigraph page to confirm ATIS frequency and it matches with the one in PSX.

[United744]

Did you try slewing the aircraft to a silly altitude like 100,000 ft and seeing if you can receive it there?

[Hardy Heinlin]

Which database includes the name COMOX in the ATIS record?

[andrej]

Did you try slewing the aircraft to a silly altitude like 100,000 ft and seeing if you can receive it there?

Following your question, I tried:
2000
FL180
FL310

using 2112 and 2204 databases. 2112 worked at all levels / altitude. 2204 did not work.

Which database includes the name COMOX in the ATIS record?

Hardy, I see following for 2112 and 2204:

[Hardy Heinlin]

OK, it has nothing to do with the name.

I guess the ATIS station lat/lon includes a typo in that database. Unfortunately, there's no display in PSX that could show the ATIS lat/lon to the user.

The error can only be corrected by Navigraph or Jeppesen anyway.

[RRVyper]

Thanks Hardy, andrej and United744. I, too, tested different altitudes with no luck, but using 2204 I was able to receive CYQQ ATIS when the aircraft was near CYVR or CYYJ (I just had motion paused and dragged the aircraft around at 10000 ft). As Hardy posited, it does appear the lat/lon is incorrect in the Navigraph database.

As for CYWG (120.200), there may be a different issue at play. When I dragged the aircraft around Winnipeg, I began picking up ATIS but not from CYWG. Nearby airport CYPG (Portage la Prarie) shows 2 ATIS frequencies in the Navigraph database (120.200 & 120.850) and another nearby (to Winnipeg) airstrip CYGM (Gimli Industrial Park) shows 120.200. It appears that PSX is giving priority to either CYPG or CYGM when the frequency is set to 120.200, and when on the ground at CYWG you lose line of sight so no ATIS. When I moved from testing CYQQ over to CYWG, I did initially get CYWG ATIS (at 10000 ft) but once I started dragging the aircraft around, I mostly received CYPG, sometimes CYGM. I suspect IRL there aren't separate ATIS stations and that Nav Canada expects a pilot to tune to Winnipeg ATIS as it is close by. Interestingly, neither CYPG nor CYGM Navigraph charts show 120.200 MHz as an ATIS frequency so it may be outdated data in this case.

I'll see if I can figure out the lat/lon of the stations and see if Navigraph can fix it.

Hardy, what determines the priority between same frequencies?

Thanks everyone.

Randy

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hardy, what determines the priority between same frequencies?

Shortest distance.

But the distance check isn't executed continuously; it's executed when the aircraft has flown 3 or so miles since the last check. So there's a tolerance of some miles.

[RRVyper]

Ok. Thanks.

Randy

[RRVyper]

Here is the query and response from Navigraph:

I wrote:

Hi.

I am having a couple of issues with the navdata provided for Aerowinx Precision Simulator (PSX). I'll paraphrase what I posted on the PSX forum:

While using PSX, I noticed that there was no ATIS broadcast at the airport I was departing from (CYWG - 120.200). I was still selected to an older Navigraph database so switched to the latest one (2204) but still didn't hear ATIS. I was able to contact Ground, though. I switched back to the default PSX Nav Data and ATIS came alive.

I tried some other airports using Navigraph 2204. CYYC was fine, as was CYVR, but CYQQ - 118.600 was dead. I switched to Navigraph 2112 and CYQQ ATIS came back (but was missing for 2113 through 2204). The ATIS frequency was showing correctly on the PSX Analysis/Airport Instructor tab.

I tested different altitudes with no luck, but using 2204 I was able to receive CYQQ ATIS when the aircraft was near CYVR or CYYJ (I just had motion paused and dragged the aircraft around at 10000 ft). It appears the lat/lon is incorrect in the Navigraph database.

As for CYWG (120.200), there may be a different issue at play. When I dragged the aircraft around Winnipeg, I began picking up ATIS but not from CYWG. Nearby airport CYPG (Portage la Prarie) shows 2 ATIS frequencies in the Navigraph database (120.200 & 120.850) and another nearby (to Winnipeg) airstrip CYGM (Gimli Industrial Park) shows 120.200. It appears that PSX is giving priority to either CYPG or CYGM when the frequency is set to 120.200, and when on the ground at CYWG you lose line of sight so no ATIS. When dragging the aircraft around the Winnipeg area, I mostly received CYPG, sometimes CYGM. I expect to receive CYWG ATIS when sitting on the ground at CYWG. Interestingly, neither CYPG nor CYGM Navigraph charts show 120.200 MHz as an ATIS frequency so it may be outdated data in this case.

I hope this makes sense.

Randy

Richard from Navigraph's response:

Hi Randy,
first of all thanks for your report but I guess, we can´t really help you in this case. The reason is, that we don´t use our own parser for the data, we use the NavBuero parser from Aerowinx. So, we had no idea about any logic behind and how and which data will be used from this parser. It´s not our code - we only offer the raw data to create the PSX files via this external parser.

To you example CYWG - CYPG:
CYPG has two ATIS frequencies in our data, right - but one of these frequency is marked as "secondary frequency" - it´s the 120.200. The primary is 120.850 ... this is a typical example - we don´t know how the PSX parser handle this - possible wrong, I don´t know because I can´t debug it and/or can´t look into the code.

Sorry Randy, in this specific case, please contact the Aerowinx support - we can´t really help you ... big sorry.

Cheers,
Richard

PS: I will speak with Hardy to add the PSX format to our own parser in the future - it´s simpler for us and and we can support it to 100%.

https://forum.navigraph.com/t/psx-navdata-problem/7953

Hopefully this can be solved.

Randy

[Hardy Heinlin]

In the ARINC 424 primary record for COM data I see just one frequency. That's the one which Navburo reads. I think we all agree that this is the correct method. The only other relevant factor re ATIS is that the COM station has to be marked as an ATIS type (shortcut "ATI") rather than as TWR, GND, APP etc. Maybe they have different subtypes of the ATIS now, e.g. shortcut "AT1", "AT2" or something like that? If so, PSX will not use these as ATIS. But PSX will show these on the Analysis page nevertheless. Strangely, they don't appear on Andrej's screenshot.

Maybe it's hidden in a continuation record. In that case I can't help, regrettably.

An alternate solution for you: Request a D-ATIS via ACARS.

[RRVyper]

I think the CYWG issue is an error in interpretation on Navigraph's part. I'm pretty sure those 3 airports don't use the same frequency. It doesn't even show on the charts. I believe it stems from having CYWG as a backup (or primary?) for wx and altimeter settings in years past. I don't think the pilot believes he is tuning CYPG or CYGM on 120.200 for CYPG or CYGM ATIS. He will get CYWG ATIS (the nearby Intl Airport). I'm not sure why there is no ATIS from CYWG though, when spawning there in PSX, even though it 'sees' the frequency.

As for CYQQ, I wasn't able to decipher any of the data to see if there was a location associated. But it was working in Navigraph 2112.

I hope you can assist Navigraph in figuring it out. As you say, there are workarounds. 

Randy

[Hardy Heinlin]

It's a bit hard for me to transfer your text into my brain; the text is full of "CY", "CY", "CY" ... :-)

A short list of facts might help, in table form, so that the eyes can easily compare what happens where.


|-|

[RRVyper]

Maybe a couple of pictures will help:





Randy

Edit: reduced pics to 500 pixels wide.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Thank you for making an overview. Well, I still think that the problem lies in wrong station coordinates in the original database. This is something that only Navigraph can check in their original Jeppesen ARINC file. It doesn't depend on whether Navigraph apply their ARINC file to my Navburo or to their own converters.

When nothing else helps, the only thing you can do is request a D-ATIS via ACARS.


|-|ardy