Navburo not importing approach segments?

[United744]

Hi,

I followed the steps in the how-to post for importing Gary's Kai Tak data, and the vast majority of the procedure went without a hitch.

I downloaded all the files from Gary's GitHub page, then proceeded to carefully copy everything into the new files created by Navburo.

I'm using the last Navblue database, and in the final step, the checkbox to "block all filler" was UNCHECKED, which I presume means it will copy everything not defined from the Navblue database?

This process appeared to work; the expected number of procedures, fixes, etc., appeared in the conversion process, and running the custom database, the rest of the world plus Kai Tak was present, so I assumed the process was successful.

What I found is that some parts of procedures appear to be missing. I tend to use Heathrow when testing things, and often just select a departure runway, and an ILS approach, to complete the FMC flows and get all takeoff data computed.

I noticed with the custom database that selection of ILS RW27R (I did not check the others) that several waypoints are missing: CF27R being a major one (it is approximately 7 NM from touchdown and includes a 2500 ft crossing restriction).

Instead, while all procedures appeared to be present, the ILS began at the runway, and continued, correctly, into the missed approach.

The transitions were also missing (IIRC) and the INT TO at 6R was also blank.

Everything else appeared to be present.

Did I miss a step, or did it fail to copy something? I'll re-run the build and post a screenshot of the end page.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi,

if you load an old situ file that has been saved while an older Navblue database was installed, and you reload that situ while a different Navblue database is installed (regardless of any additional custom databases) you may see a DEP/ARR index that might disagree with the actual database content. To solve this, you need to re-enter the airports on the RTE page to refresh the DEP/ARR index. Then you can resave this situ. Situ files just store the six routes that are in the FMC and CDU memory, and the text on the index page, not the database.


|-|ardy

[United744]

I'm using "-End of last session.situ" as the default start-up flight (so the aircraft always starts as it was last left).

I swapped to the new custom database, then cleared the FMC by swapping the DB on the IDENT page. This cleared the FMC of all data.

I re-entered the airports, and still see the same problem. I'm just getting screenshots.

[United744]

Navburo build page: https://i.imgur.com/TdTYF5e.png

ILS RW27R selection with default database: https://i.imgur.com/Gwb1yK1.png

ILS RW27R selection with custom database: https://i.imgur.com/3XDUDYP.png

(Graphical artifacts in the second image are due to how I saved the screenshot in paint).

[Hardy Heinlin]

I can't see any error in your screenshots.

When your Kai Tak database is selected and you enter CF27R on Instructor > Situation > Position in the "Map center" edit field, will you get a list of multiple CF27R objects or the message "not in database"?

CF27R is a terminal waypoint. Your Navburo Kai Tak screenshot indicates a sum of 11508 terminal waypoints. I'm getting the same number in my Navburo. And in PSX I'm getting two CF27R waypoints, one near EGLL and one in Brazil -- when I'm using the Navblue default database or my Kai Tak mix. (CF27R is not in the Aerosoft database; there's an L27RF instead.)

Do you have any blocker files that are not empty? On the Step 5 page, double-click the orange line "Blocker08" to open the blocker file for terminal waypoints.

Also ...

On the Step 6 page, double-click the orange line "Part08" to open the source file of the terminal waypoints. Does this source file contain any CF27R? If so, that may autoblock CF27R in the fillings from the default database.

[United744]

Hi Hardy,

I'm away from my sim computer,  ut I'll check them later tonight.

[United744]

CF27R is present at the correct coordinates.

Step 5 Blocker08 is empty.

Step 6 Part08 only contains the Kai Tak entry.

[United744]

Hi,

Any suggestions?

[Hardy Heinlin]

Is your data OK when you select "Default data"? (Without Kai Tak.)

[United744]

Yes.

If I sent my source files, could you try them?

[Hardy Heinlin]

Are they all from Gary's site?

Just tell me one example of your incomplete EGLL approaches. Just the approach name. And what exactly is missing there.

[United744]

* Enter EGLL as destination
* Press DEP/ARR
* Select ARR
* Select ILS RW27R

Observe the first fix loaded is the runway, and none of the approach legs.

The files (all of them) were downloaded from Gary's site, then the CONTENTS carefully copied to the Navburo files, being careful with the double LF at the end of each file.

[Hardy Heinlin]

I can reproduce the problem. I see it happens when a Navburo build is in use that has at least one terminal waypoint filling; not only with the Kai Tak addition but also with the FAA addition. So it's not Kai Tak specific. The plain default database or the Aerosoft custom database are OK. (Aerosoft has no fillings). I'll have to find the error in Navburo ...


|-|ardy

[Steve Hose]

Hi Hardy,

Not sure if this helps, but I have seen similar behaviour when importing worldwide terminal waypoints into Navburo, even if I block the default database fillings.

If I generate a Part08 file directly from my source (i.e. not ordered or filtered by me in any way) and then import this into Navburo, I found some terminal waypoints were missing when I loaded SIDs, STARs & approaches in the FMC. When I checked the PSX position page, these terminal waypoints exist in my custom nav database and display on the map.

I discovered that if I order the waypoints in the Part08 file in a certain way, i.e.

'select all waypoint records, ordered by [customer/area code],  [airport ICAO], [waypoint identifier] ascending'

...then all terminal waypoints would correctly load into FMC terminal procedures.

It seems therefore that the conversion process within Navburo is sensitive to how data is grouped together within the Part files.

I've got the same thing occurring with airways (it's missing some segments when the fixes are there) but I haven't got around to investigating this yet.

It would be helpful to know how Navburo reconstructs composite records from point data, ie. Enroute Holds, SIDs, STARs, Approaches and Airways from waypoints & navaids etc. That way I can ensure my files are built in a way Navburo finds & converts all data.

I hope I explained this clearly enough. Examples are hard to provide because I'm dealing with very large data sets.

Regards, Steve.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi all,

there are two database files for terminal waypoints: One file (pc.w) which contains more general information and that is used when a map is loading. And a second file (pct.w) with less information which is used when the FMC is loading a DEP/ARR procedure and looking for plain lat/lon points. That second file (pct.w) needs to be sorted and grouped by airport identifiers. When the FMC scans the file and finds the first occurence of the desired airport, and the wanted waypoint is not in that first group (because the file is fragmented), the FMC will stop the search at the next airport group and assume the wanted waypoint is not in the database.

The file structure looks like this:

YSSY
waypoint1 lat lon
waypoint2 lat lon
etc.
YMML
waypoint1 lat lon
waypoint2 lat lon
etc.

This has never been a problem because the Navblue source file was always grouped by airports and never fragmented.

When Navburo gets a fragmented source file, the result may look like this:

YSSY
waypoint1 lat lon
YMML
waypoint1 lat lon
YSSY
waypoint2 lat lon
YMML
waypoint2 lat lon

In that case the FMC DEP/ARR loader will never find waypoint2 in YSSY because there must be just one YSSY group and waypoint2 is not in the YSSY group that the FMC finds first.

(The other file does not have this airport related structure. That's why that other file shows all waypoints on maps or when entering a waypoint in the FMC.)

The other problem with the fillings may be related to that file structure. I will try to fix it before or after my summer break.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Hardy Heinlin]

The "missing waypoint" problem is now fixed in Navburo version 11:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6371.0

When you have version 11, please rebuild your Kai Tak and FAA custom databases (if you built them already).


|-|ardy

[Steve Hose]

Thank you Hardy, great service as always, even when you're meant to be on holidays 

I will give this a go when I have some time this evening.

Enjoy your break and I'll not bother you until you are back!

Best regards, Steve.

[United744]

The "missing waypoint" problem is now fixed in Navburo version 11

Hi Hardy,

Great! Confirmed working. Thank you!!

Have a good holiday!