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Nav data for PSX: A new solution

Started by Hardy Heinlin, Sat, 23 Jan 2021 00:40

andrej

#40
Hardy,

I am sorry to hear of such attitude from the navdata supplier. I am on Markus with this one, i.e. lack of understanding, new targets, or desire to drop you as a customer (i.e. not worth their time). Nonetheless, none of these is good. Instead of building a long lasting and beneficial relationship.

Nonetheless, I hope that Doug can pull some strings at the right places and do some magic. As I remember from the PS1 days, navdatabase updates were good but infrequent and eventually stopped. This is a challenging task and not easily manageable as a hobby.

I can only think of one work around. PFPX export feature works and one has all waypoints on desired flight. This however does not address published SIDs and STARs. I am not sure if PFPX can exports flight-plans with SIDs and STARs. Additionally changes in navaids such as shutting down of VORs and NDBs, this will not be reflected (not a bad thing from my point of view).

Nonetheless, it goes without saying, that I would gladly support navdata updates, even with price increase.

I do hope that eventually we will have some positive outcome out of this grim situation.

Best!
Andrej

Captain_Crow

I am totally agree with Andrej, especial the point with wiiling to pay for databases.

Best luck
Steff

funkyhut

If Hardy were to maintain a two version strategy so that the game version could somehow use Navigraph data, I would be most happy to pay an annual license fee to "play" that game.
Greetings from the mountains of Northern Thailand (VTCC),
Chris Stanley.

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Markus Vitzethum on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:20
openaip.net ...

Interesting! I didn't know something like that already exists. Looks like a good start. Things can always be improved.


Quote from: funkyhut on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 21:31
If Hardy were to maintain a two version strategy so that the game version could somehow use Navigraph data ...

A dual license system is not possible. Please see my comment here:
https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6267.msg67721#msg67721


Quote from: Ton van Bochove on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 16:48
Hardy, is this an increase per sold update or an increase of the sum you pay to navblue.

The latter. I see some of you guys would pay 100 EUR plus retail costs and tax, plus 5% anual price increase. But as only a few of you would pay this price, the sum for Navblue will not increase, maybe even decrease, and that's a risk I can't take. Contracts usually run for at least five years.


There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.


Regards,

|-|ardy

G-CIVA

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30
There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

That would be my preferred course of action & solution.
Steve Bell
aka The CC

Markus Vitzethum

#45
Hi Hardy,

just had an idea just after getting up ...

> But as only a few of you would pay this price, the sum for Navblue will not increase,
> maybe even decrease, and that's a risk I can't take.

Understood ... you need to invest a large amount beforehand and you will not know in advance if you have a 100% return of investment.

But there is solution to this type of problem ... why not change the business model to Crowdfunding?  (e.g. on Kickstarter; need to check if it falls into the allowed categories).

The basic idea would be to set up a crowdfunding goal which covers the Navblue costs. The risk for the creator is probably low, but we will need to do some reading, I guess. The way I understand it, the project will not start and no funding will be given to the creator, if the goal is not met (e.g. the NavBlue costs + adminstrative costs).

For the donator, the risk is probably low because money will only be deduced from his account, if the crowdfunding goal is reached or exceeded. So, there is little risk in contributing. (But if the goal is reached, it's a binding contract). But it only works if enough people sign up!

So ... you know beforehand if you have enough money and you know the amount of people contributing. Very low risk on your side (or, whoever starts the campaign.)

I understand that a campaing has a certain amount of time given ... could be the lead time for negotiations with NavBlue. You will probable need a quote and a feedback time with an "accept/reject quote" decision.

We could do this every year... or more often, or less frequently...

Markus


edit:
p.s.
More thoughts ... do we know the price for multiple NavBlue cycles per year? There must be some kind of discount if you buy more ... (all the commerical contracts in my company work that way; that's how the game works).

Also, if a supplier tripples prices, usually we ask a competitor (here: Lido, Jeppesen) for a quote. Is that already ruled out or still possible? Can the request be renewed? (I know that Lido partnered with Aerosoft and Jeppesen with Navigraph... )

edit 2:
Quick scan through the kickstarter guidelines reveals no obvious rules violation. NavData is something that must be created, it is new, it can (must!) be shared with contributors, it's not illegal and not a financial service. Sounds good.
Only rule that applies .. only the content creator is allowed to start the crowdfunding campaign. So that would Hardy.

Hardy Heinlin

Hi Markus,

crowdfunding is too chaotic when Navblue's typical 5-year subscription schedule is running. It's not possible to change the 5-year contract every few months.

Of course, the more you buy, the cheaper the fees. But the sum is still way over the top.


Regards,

|-|ardy

GodAtum

I wonder how Prosim and Jeehell do their navdata?

Anyway, openaip.net could be a solution?

Bastien

#48
Hi there,
It's a really bad news.
After reading all your posts, I must admit this situation is very frustrating.

I can't imagine running MSFS or Xplane as visual generator with (useless) updated&professional quality navdata and PSX with "low quality" manually updated navdata from an opensource platform!! It's a shame!!

Excuse me but PSX deserve a better solution than that.

For me this solution is interesting and a guarantee of quality. this makes sense

Quote
There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

Business plan could take into account an engagement of PSX licenced user to buy these data update.
Or perhaps a subscription between this consortium and "normal users" could secure the investment.

We could start a poll to ask if PSX users want to make a deal reality ?

Markus Vitzethum

Godatum

> Anyway, openaip.net could be a solution?

openaip.net is targeted more towards creating an airspace map (my view on things) than having a full navigation database, or in other words, for the VFR pilot. I see little relevant IFR data. (Airways, ILSs, RNAV wayoints).

Hardy,

> crowdfunding is too chaotic when Navblue's typical 5-year subscription schedule is running.

understood. This is a position I'm sure each of us understandy easily.

But on the other hand ... why not cover the full 5 years by crowfunding? If I'm not wrong it does not increase the risk on your side but slightly on "our" side (trusting you that you will remain in business for 5 more years). When I run the numbers, I come up with 91.5k€ (incl. 5% annual rise and Kickstarter fees) or 455€ for 5 years.
If you decide that it's worth a try (signalling NavBlue that the triple is accepted - usually not a good thing; it will never get cheap again), there is little risk for you - if the project fails on kickstarter, there is no cost for you.
(Note: I cannot rate the influence for a tax declaration... )

Markus

Will

Hardy, do you (as Aerowinx) have to commit to purchasing a certain number of data sets from Navblue over the 5-year contract lifetime? Or does your contract just set the price?

If it's the latter, if it's pay-as-you-go, then it may be worth seeing what the market will support in terms of a price increase. As was said above, sim enthusiasts often do pay a lot of money to support their hobby. The current download price for a navdata update is about $30 USD, right? Three hundred percent of that, plus 5% yearly increase, is still just around $100. I would bet that price wouldn't scare everyone away.

You could probably even continue at that price for a year or two while you worked on a permanent solution.

Of course, if this is an upfront expense to you, meaning if you have to risk your own cash to pre-purchase a certain number of downloads, or pay large fees to set the contract up, then I understand if it's not a risk worth taking.

Of course, this has already occurred to you. :-)
Will /Chicago /USA

Hardy Heinlin


Will

Will /Chicago /USA

Will

I would be surprised if there isn't a good, workable open-source solution to the problem. For example, the United States has always made the entire navigation database available free of charge. (For paper charts, you'd pay just the cost of printing, but the data itself was not copyrighted.) With the switch to the Internet, you can now download all American charts at no cost, in PDF form and in ARINC database form.

How Jeppesen made their money back in the day was three-fold: (A) personalized subscription services, that removed things from the master database that an operator didn't need, (B) operator specific airport charts, and (3) really beautiful graphics. (I still think their charts are beautiful; they need to win some kind of design competition if they haven't already.)

So Jeppesen didn't have access to proprietary data; they just made public data beautiful, and convenient.

This is why I think there's room for competition. They can't be the only owners of the world's navigation data. Someone just needs to find worldwide equivalents of the North American ARINC file I linked to earlier, and then write a parser that turns the format into something PSX can use.

The cost would be up front in putting it all together, but once it's assembled, just press the master switch to re-collect the data every two weeks and the PSX database is updated at no cost.

Of course, I no idea how this really works. Can you just get data for Europe, North Korea, and Antarctica the same way you can download North American data? I obviously do not know. But my guess is you can.
Will /Chicago /USA

VolleyballCALVA

Quote from: GodAtum on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 10:40
I wonder how Prosim and Jeehell do their navdata?


Prosim's navigation data was provided by Navigraph.

vnangli

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30

The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

Regards,

|-|ardy

I would be willing to be a part of such arrangement. I will commit to buy...In the past have bought the Nav Data regularly ever since I started on PSX.
747 is not an airplane, it is a symbol of inspiration....

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Will on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 15:30
Someone just needs to find worldwide equivalents of the North American ARINC file ...

That's why I think OpenAIP as an international platform would be a good start. Users in various countries may gather data for their favourite regions, once or twice a year. However, I don't think that every state provides data in ARINC format. And not every state provides data free of charge. At least Australia doesn't. The American NGA offered worldwide data (DAFIF) free of charge; the free service ended in 2006 because the Australian government introduced some fees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFIF

Perhaps the FAA's ARINC data is produced by this firm: https://aeronavdata.com/

All the firms (Navblue, Jepp, LH, AeroNavdata) produce the ARINC data differently; you can see differences in some conditional waypoint coding style, and even disagreements in navaid locations due to typos. So I think the original government data doesn't always come in ARINC format.

Anyway, if I provide tools to convert ARINC data to PSX format, any Aerowinx-independent project is possible: A consortium of high-end sim builders & nav data resellers, or a special crowdfunding group, or various private data managements (e.g. airline specific). In all cases I would exclude myself and just offer the conversion tools free of charge. (Remember, I'm just a single human being with a finite lifetime; it shouldn't all depend on myself. This note is especially important to the younger ones that have big plans with their sims for the next decades.)


Regards,

|-|ardy

funkyhut

#57
Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 23:45
Anyway, if I provide tools to convert ARINC data to PSX format, any Aerowinx-independent project is possible: A consortium of high-end sim builders & nav data resellers, or a special crowdfunding group, or various private data managements (e.g. airline specific). In all cases I would exclude myself and just offer the conversion tools free of charge. (Remember, I'm just a single human being with a finite lifetime; it shouldn't all depend on myself. This note is especially important to the younger ones that have big plans with their sims for the next decades.)

If anyone is keeping tally of numbers, please count me in to contribute to any solution to this.
Thank You.


Quote tags edited.
Greetings from the mountains of Northern Thailand (VTCC),
Chris Stanley.

isaaclevi

Hello Hardy,

Given that this is a flight simulator and not an actual flight,
the navigation data does not change as much as that,
and that we are already using the cycle of the month of March
and not the whole of one year, as long as the fmc gives us a correct periodicity,
that suits me well and it will be able to still hold in the five years to come,
this by using the last cycle to date (March 2020) .
Of course, that will not prevent the solution negotiated with the suppliers.
We are with you wholeheartedly.

isaaclevi

Will

isaaclevi, not to change the subject, but is that a DHC-6 Twin Otter cockpit in your avatar photo?
Will /Chicago /USA