Landing to left of runway

[masselli]

This is a bit off topic but these talks about CAT III reminded me of my old friend John Gorham.  I've included his obituary.  It's a long one because John did so much in his lifetime.  Around the middle of the obituary is where it will make sense about CAT III.  It's always good to remember the people that got us to where we are today.

-Mark

OBITUARY
John Anthony David Gorham, a pioneering aviation engineer and manufacturer passed away on November 28th, 2008 at the age of 86 after complications from a fall at home. Mr. Gorham was born on August 8, 1922 in Ipswich, England to Alice and Alfred Gorham and was an award-winning free-flight modeler by the age of eleven.
During World War II, he was stationed in Madras, India where he organized, set-up and designed all test equipment to maintain and repair combat aircraft instruments for four years in support of the South East Asia Command Air Force. He also worked on a blind landing experiment. It was there he met his wife of 38 years and mother of his five children, Audrey Beryl Cheverton. She was born and raised in Madras by English parents Hazel and Arthur Cheverton.
The couple settled in Ipswich England in 1945 where John was hired as chief of design for the Royal Aircraft Establishment Blind Landing Unit His son Michael David was born in 1946 and daughters Susan Patricia and Christine Leslie soon followed in 1947 and 1949. His fourth child, Robert Steven, came into the world in 1960. and youngest son John Peter was born in 1963.
John played many musical instruments throughout his life, a love especially shared by his daughter Susan who won the top national competition for young English violinists two years running and was awarded a scholarship to the Royal Academy of Music at the age of 16. He also had a lifelong love of modeling and was British National Champion in 1949 and Manager of the Ipswich Modeling Club, the National Champion Club of 1950, where he also took second individually to a fellow club member. His first son, Michael, tagged along when he went flying and developed a love of the hobby as well. He designed and published plans for several free-flight model kits that won many national competitions and placed fourth at the World Model Air Olympics in 1954 as a United Kingdom team member, held in the United States.
John was hired as Engineering Manager of Smith's Aviation in 1954 and moved to Cheltenham, England before emigrating to the United States to work for Lockheed on the SST program in 1965. When that program was shelved, John moved to the Lynn Ranch area of California in 1966 to work on the legendary L-1011 program for Lockheed Aircraft.
At Lockheed. John was in charge of 800 engineers working on the first commercial Cat III automatic pilot for the landmark airliner and was considered one of the world's foremost authorities on all-weather landing systems. He is hailed in the aviation industry for being the first engineer to make dependence on an automatic pilot a viable option in commercial applications. A signed print of John on top of the L-1011 with the caption "They said it couldn't be done, but you did it, Happy Autolandings John" was presented to him at his retirement from Lockheed in 1971.
John was also out in his cabin cruiser on the Pacific Ocean with his family almost every weekend from the late 1960's to the mid 1970's and adapted an early prototype of the L-1011 autopilot to operate on the vessel. An avid fisherman, he was always exploring new places along the California coast from Mexico to the Bay area.
In 1971, when the aerospace and aviation industries were in the process of mass layoffs, John started Gorham Associates, a consulting company that worked with virtually every major aviation company world wide, including the FAA, and spoke at countless International Symposiums from 1963 through 1997 including 6 years on the Aerospace Advisory Panel for NASA where he gave Annual Technical Reports to congress regarding Space Shuttle safety criteria and operation. MANNA, a Southern California Regional Food Bank started in 1971 to help the families of those affected by the mass layoffs is presently run by his son John Peter.
It was also about this time that John became one of the pioneers of the Radio-Controlled Helicopter movement, acknowledged as the second person in the world to successfully fly one. He was the founder of Helicopters Anonymous, the first modeling club in America dedicated solely to the advancement of radio-controlled helicopters.
At a Hollywood studios request, John made 6 small model helicopters for the Barbara Streisand/Gene Hackman movie "All Night Long" in 1979 and Gorham Model Products, which quickly became the largest manufacturer of radio-controlled helicopters in the country, was born. The GMP "Cricket", developed for the movie, eventually sold 16,000 units and helped to put the company on the INC 500 awards list for fastest-growing American companies. John was also two-time National FAI R/C Helicopter champion. GMP helicopters were owned by 60% of all R/C Helicopter pilots in the country when it was in operation and were sold in thousands of hobby stores around the world. John also wrote the monthly column for Radio Control Modeler "Give It A Whirl" for five years.
His son Robert Steven was hired as a pilot and engineer for GMP in 1980 and was three-time National FAI R/C Helicopter Champion and anchored the American team to their first world championship. John also started Gorham Drones to produce scaled drones for the military including 1/5 scale Hind-D drones that helped the American military develop defensive tactics against the heavily-armed Soviet helicopters.
Upon his retirement, John designed the control system and piloted the world's first R/C vane controlled VTOL UAV for Grumman Aircraft and also was the President of his local modeling club in San Marcos, California until his recent passing. His daughter Christine moved nearby in the last two years of his life to help take care of him after his second wife Louise died in 2006.
John holds or shares many U.S. patents and was elected a Chartered Engineer on British Register in 1963, Associate Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics in 1967 and Fellow of the Royal Aeronautical Society in 1991.
John is survived by his first wife, Audrey Beryl Brooks, his Sons Michael David, Robert Steven and John Peter. Daughters Susan Patricia and Christine Leslie. Stepsons Michael and Scott Cummings and grandchildren Julie, Erik, Andrew, Sonya, Michelle, Shawna, John, Matthew and Jessica. He was preceded in death by his second wife Louise in 2006 and brother Peter in 2007.

[cavaricooper]

Mark-

Thanks for that! As an R/C Heli pilot (FAI) I well remember GMP. What a small world!

Best- C

[ScudRunner]

What an incredible life he led!!  Thanks for sharing that story with us.

[emerydc8]

I'll read that document when I have a few spare hours and a large pot of coffee

LOL. I was thinking of printing out all 82 pages and using it to treat insomnia!

[John H Watson]

In the tower, all ILS are monitored

This is the part I'm most curious about. The tower has no way of knowing if the glideslope signal is accurate unless it has an antenna stuck in the middle of the glidepath (not good for aircraft). At best, it can only monitor the power output of the transmitter and that, perhaps, the lobe frequencies are correct.

[emerydc8]

I know it's boring, but I think you'll have your answer if you read that document I posted. There actually are additional downfield antennae that monitor the integrity and accuracy of the localizer.

[tango4]

In the tower, all ILS are monitored

This is the part I'm most curious about. The tower has no way of knowing if the glideslope signal is accurate unless it has an antenna stuck in the middle of the glidepath (not good for aircraft). At best, it can only monitor the power output of the transmitter and that, perhaps, the lobe frequencies are correct.

Hi John, I always forget how no inaccuracy is possible here !
You are indeed totally right, a complete signal monitor is not possible.
I am not 100% sure what is monitored as this is not my job but if I recall correctly this is mostly electrical backups, and as you say that the transmitters are indeed transmitting. If you want more details on this I could ask the ILS maintenance guys.
But what that means is that if the redundancy needed for a CATIII approach is lost, only the tower will know it and be able to tell the pilot that this specific ILS has downgraded to CATI.
Now, in order for an ILS to be CATIII capable, it works a bit like on an aircraft. You need 3 things :
*The ILS needs all the "features" (electrical backup and so on) (like an aircraft type being approved or not in general) built in.
*The real time check (the screen in the tower which will give us the status: CATIII, CATI, LOC ONLY, OFF), an equivalent to the (LAND3, LAND2, NO AUTOLAND) status in the aircraft (but does not guarantee the quality of the signal)
*But you also need the ILS to be "current" in order to guarantee that quality.It has to be periodically checked as you know. It's just that in order for the ILS to maintain its CATIII rating, you need more frequent and stringent calibrations .
I don't have all the intervals in my mind, but if I recall correctly it is calibrated by airplane once a year, and you have periodical ground calibrations campaigns (long and short ones) where they do what you say: there is a vehicle with a very high deployable mast that goes on the opposite side of the transmitters, raises the mast and measures the signal. If some inaccuracy is detected they recalibrate it. And if for some reason it is too inaccurate, I think it has to go through a full airborne calibration again.


I am pretty sure there are still some incaccuracies in what I just wrote as this is clearly beyond my knowledge. But if you have very specific questions, I can try and ask people who know that (much) better than I do.


Charles

[John H Watson]

I started reading the notes that Jon posted. It seems that some kind of sensors are positioned in front of all the antennae (i.e. directly in front, checking alignment, but somehow not affecting the signal). Or, at least, that's my understanding of it (they use some big words).  There also seems to be a sensor further out (but on the ground)....

I fell asleep shortly after that )))

[emerydc8]

Better than Ambien?

[andrej]

Albeit it is an approach for 22L and VOR/DME approach, it is nice to see this approach done in the real world. My experience is only limited to the PSX.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tJMsnazXt0

Cheers,

[John H Watson]

Optical illusion or did it take 25 seconds for the flap position to turn to green after reversers stowed?

[cagarini]

Optical illusion or did it take 25 seconds for the flap position to turn to green after reversers stowed?

Indeed - well observed :-)

Looks like less in this other videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TImK-oNY6-s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyrq1snK0k4

[United744]

@John: I'm not sure if ILS glide slope is monitored or not - there was an (in)famous Air New Zealand 767 approaching into Apia that experienced a failed glide slope transmitter.

The result of the failure was to indicate an on-glide regardless of the position of the aircraft. I'm not sure if the monitoring systems were improved as a result of this incident or not?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GelRBhJ4gmI

[John H Watson]

Looks like less in this other videos:

Actually, they are about the same. I was basing my original time on levers stowed to flap colour change. In your videos, the time was 24 seconds (within one second). Strange. I can explain the time delay for deployment, but not the huge 24~25 seconds when stowing them. 

there was an (in)famous Air New Zealand 767 approaching into Apia that experienced a failed glide slope transmitter.

Was/is Apia a CAT III airport?

[United744]

According to the official report, the ILS system was Cat. I only. Air NZ 767 was certified to Cat. II only.

While I was looking for the report, I came across a news article that said a 767-300 crashed there in 1997, with the same suspected cause as the Air NZ incident.

[Hardy Heinlin]

I was basing my original time on levers stowed to flap colour change. In your videos, the time was 24 seconds

24 or 20 seconds ... what's so unusual about this delay? There's an electronic time delay hysterisis to avoid on/off flicker. In PSX it's about 20 seconds. Wasn't the time value documented in a maintenance manual?


|-|ardy

[John H Watson]

Just to clarify, we are talking about the flap numeric display showing "30" in magenta with reverser activation. The change to magenta time is as I would expect it, but the change back to green has a 20+ second delay. I thought the colour change would be almost instantaneous in both situations (?).

I can't recall what components trigger the colour change (LE flap extend switch? [extended/not extended), LE flap stow switch (stowed/not stowed) or combinations of both...  vs Flap Lever?].

[United744]

I thought the delay was due to:

* Selection of forward idle
* Sleeve transition time
* LE transition time
* Some delay to detection of all of the above
* Green when back in position?

If you watch videos of the landing from outside after the reversers are stowed, it does take about 20 seconds for everything to return to flight configuration from the moment the reversers start to move.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Just to clarify, we are talking about the flap numeric display showing "30" in magenta with reverser activation. The change to magenta time is as I would expect it, but the change back to green has a 20+ second delay. I thought the colour change would be almost instantaneous in both situations (?).

Yes, we are on the same page. As far as I recall, there is a time delay of less than 20 seconds in the FCU that keeps the LE extended after reverser operation. When this delay has passed, the LE start retracting which also takes some time.

A disagreement out of UP happens instantly. Removing this disagreement by going back to UP will not happen instantly.

When a brick falls from a mountain top, the brick is instantly gone from the top. To bring that brick up to the top takes a much longer time.


|-|ardy


P.S.: You remember that Boeing changed the trigger logic some years ago. In former times the actual reverser sleeve position was used as a trigger. Now it's the reverser lever angle on the flight deck. I applied this Boeing update in PSX in 2015. Just checked :-) And the electronic delay is 10 seconds. The rest is LE retraction time.

[John H Watson]

Ah.. I forgot about the exterior view videos.

Looking at the wiring diagrams, the signal for LE flap retraction is based on 10 degree movement switches in the rev thrust levers (and air/ground signals). (Just noticed your edit, Hardy, after I wrote this)

If the magenta is based on a "disagree" signal. I'd say that the LE flaps would move away from the full extended position ("ext" switches on the drives will be deactivated), triggering the colour change (in combination with flap lever position)

When the reverse levers are stowed (the same 10 degree rev lever switches are deactivated) and the indications will be looking at the same LE flap extended switches. I would have expected the flaps to take 10 seconds to re-extend (and the colour to go back to green). However, the reversers take a few seconds to return to stowed (and for the turbulent air to settle). For some reason, Boeing added a rather large time delay on top of this (even taking into account the 10 seconds for LE re-extension and reverser stowage time).