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Throttletek Axis problem

Started by Icarus747, Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:41

garys

#20
Quote from: emerydc8 on Sun,  7 Jan 2018 22:11
When I move the non-reversing throttles back a fraction of an inch to idle using the touchscreen in virtual PSX, I am able to to get the reverse to deploy. The non-reversing engines are just sitting a fraction of an inch off idle, preventing them from going into reverse.


This is the problem Hardy. If you watch a video of the throttletek throttle It is apparent that the levers are not in sync. In Jon's case not all four levers are going back to idle. Its a charactaristic that can be overcome with specialized calibration software. As mentioned previously in FSX/P3D we have FSUIPC to calibrate, The same type of software tool doesn't yet exist for PSX for a standard joystick controller and is strongly needed. A potentiometer value being only slightly out of sync with the one next to it is enough to cause this problem of PSX not seeing a lever at idle, and using TLA doesn't work 100% correctly due to the basic nature of the windows calibration tool.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g9Ovu73tHKc

Gary

emerydc8

Gary is right -- it's not an issue of delay. The Throttletek throttles do not put all the PSX virtual throttles 100% to the idle stops, so you can wait forever and it still won't allow it to reverse. They are very close to idle but not quite exact enough to satisfy the reverse interlock on PSX. Sometimes you will get one reverse. Sometimes three. But it is rare to get all four throttles back far enough to satisfy the PSX reverse interlock. There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason as to which throttles will go all the way to the stops and which will not.

Hardy Heinlin

Some questions to find the cause of the problem:

1. On the PSX USB page, what value is indicated (next to the neutral zone edit field) when your Throttletek reverser lever is down?

2. On the PSX USB page, when 500 or -500 is entered in the neutral zone edit field, and you're moving your Throttletek reverser lever up and down, does the reverser lever in PSX move up and down in 4 steps?

3. On the PSX USB page, when you assign your Throttletek reverser levers to the sim's forward levers, and your Throttletek forward levers to the sim's reverser levers, do your Throttletek forward levers move the sim's reversers better?

4. On the PSX USB page, if you assign just 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's "all four reversers" axis, and remove all other Throttletek levers from any assignment, does that single Throttletek reverser lever move all four reversers correctly?


|-|ardy

emerydc8

#23
1. On the PSX USB page, what value is indicated (next to the neutral zone edit field) when your Throttletek reverser lever is down?
Thrust Levers 992/998/1000/1000
Reverse Levers 1000/1000/998/991

2. On the PSX USB page, when 500 or -500 is entered in the neutral zone edit field, and you're moving your Throttletek reverser lever up and down, does the reverser lever in PSX move up and down in 4 steps?

I am using a negative number (-30) for the reverse in order to get them to operate correctly. With -500, it moves the reversers but it does look like they move in steps rather than accurately track the reverse lever.

3. On the PSX USB page, when you assign your Throttletek reverser levers to the sim's forward levers, and your Throttletek forward levers to the sim's reverser levers, do your Throttletek forward levers move the sim's reversers better?

When swapping things around, I got reverse on 1, 3 and 4 when pushing the throttles forward. #1 only went up to 61% N1. #3 and #4 went to 96% N1.

4. On the PSX USB page, if you assign just 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's "all four reversers" axis, and remove all other Throttletek levers from any assignment, does that single Throttletek reverser lever move all four reversers correctly?

This is weird. It seems to be random. The first time I got no reverse on #1 but 2, 3 and 4 reversed. The second time, #1 reversed but 2, 3 and 4 did not. The third time only #4 reversed (#1 stayed in FWD with no reverse indication). The fourth time 2 and 4 reversed.

[EDIT]: I went back to double-check this because I thought it was weird that I would get any reverse on the other engines if only #1 was assigned to All Reverse and #1 was not reversing. Sure enough, I was able to get it where #2, 3, and 4 reversers deployed with #1 not reversing at all. While 2, 3 and 4 were in deep reverse, I took the #1 reverse lever out of reverse and moved the thrust lever a fraction of an inch back to idle using the PSX touchscreen (you could see it was slightly forward of idle). This allowed #1 to go into reverse when deploying it.

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: emerydc8 on Mon,  8 Jan 2018 05:09
1. On the PSX USB page, what value is indicated (next to the neutral zone edit field) when your Throttletek reverser lever is down?
Thrust Levers 992/998/1000/1000
Reverse Levers 1000/1000/998/991

What forward throttle values do you get when you're moving your reverser levers?

If you use a 30 zone and the idle signal goes below 970, the forward throttle in PSX will leave the idle stop (and therefore lock the reverser lever).


Quote from: emerydc8 on Mon,  8 Jan 2018 05:09
2. On the PSX USB page, when 500 or -500 is entered in the neutral zone edit field, and you're moving your Throttletek reverser lever up and down, does the reverser lever in PSX move up and down in 4 steps?

I am using a negative number (-30) for the reverse in order to get them to operate correctly. With -500, it moves the reversers but it does look like they move in steps rather than accurately track the reverse lever.

Of course, it moves in steps, as expected. In a range between -1000 and +1000 you have 2000 units. For slider axes the neutral zone feature is a resolution function. When 1 is set, the resolution is 2000 steps (2000/1=2000). When 500 is set, the resolution is 4 steps (2000/500=4). My question was if you get 4 steps. I want to check if the math works on your system.


Quote from: emerydc8 on Mon,  8 Jan 2018 05:09
4. On the PSX USB page, if you assign just 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's "all four reversers" axis, and remove all other Throttletek levers from any assignment, does that single Throttletek reverser lever move all four reversers correctly?

This is weird ...

You should really get four equal throttle movements when one slider is assigned to "All reversers" and all other sliders are off. By "all other sliders" I mean the other 7 sliders (4 forward levers and 3 reverse levers).

As far as I understand your problem, some of your forward levers don't stay within 30 units of the idle stop when your reverser levers are moving. This may be a mix of mechanical and electric inaccuracies. If this is true, you need to make the neutral zone of your forward levers greater than 30.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

The semantics of the "neutral zone" still remain confusing. The word "neutral" suggests something simple, where just the zero position is extended a bit, and many people interpret it this way as this is what many other sims use for basic calibration due to most yokes' weak centering mechanism. PSX's interpretation is logically fine and solves the wobbling around a non-zero position, too, but is not aligned with "neutral zone".

"Step size"?


Hoppie

Hardy Heinlin

It's just a common name for all axis classes on that GUI table. For self-centering axes it's the neutral zone in the center, and for sliders it's the neutral zone at any position; i.e. the zone that needs to be exited in order to move the virtual lever further (into the next neutral zone). In both cases it's the zone that keeps a vibrating signal in that zone, so that the virtual lever doesn't vibrate as well. Logically, when you leave a self-centering axis alone, it will stay in the center; and a slider will stay at the last position. The position where you leave it alone is the relevant position for the neutral zone.


|-|ardy

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Nm nm nm nm nm.

The concept is perfectly fine. The way you explain it is great. Just the name.

Brainstorm.

Neutral Zone
Sticky Range
Hysteresis
Jitter Limit
Jitter Threshold
Jitter Stop
Stable Range
Stabilizer
Jitter Damper
Cushion
Damper
Stepper
Noise Filter

Hardy Heinlin


emerydc8

Quote4. On the PSX USB page, if you assign just 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's "all four reversers" axis, and remove all other Throttletek levers from any assignment, does that single Throttletek reverser lever move all four reversers correctly?

    This is weird ...


You should really get four equal throttle movements when one slider is assigned to "All reversers" and all other sliders are off. By "all other sliders" I mean the other 7 sliders (4 forward levers and 3 reverse levers).

When I assign 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's all four reversers I get nothing. No reverse no forward movement. This is with no other assignments to the 7 other sliders.

b744erf

Quote from: Icarus747 on Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:41
Finally got my Throttletek quadrant.  Power levers work fine, but reversers, speedbrakes and flap axes are reversed.  (i.e. flaps 30 is up and up is 30.)  Any way to reverse these axes in PSX?

I read the upper answers. I got the same problem cuz I design and made my own throttle. The problem come with such design: the 2 different pots for the same number forward and reverse lever, while in real case that there is just one pot and the forward the reverse lever are linked togather mechanical with a pawl interlock system. In our case, we must make sure to idle the forward lever before activating the reverse. Otherwise, the REV flag will never  appeared.
My solution is to use the app DIview to set you pot range before you assign them with psx. You can download on Leobodnar card website. www.leobodnar.com

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: emerydc8 on Tue,  9 Jan 2018 00:36
When I assign 1 Throttletek reverser lever to the sim's all four reversers I get nothing. No reverse no forward movement. This is with no other assignments to the 7 other sliders.

This is actually impossible. When any USB axis is assigned to something, the USB page must be indicating any input signals, no matter whether it's an aileron or a speedbrake or a throttle. The system doesn't care about the name of the axis, be it "racecar wheel" or "beam-me-up lever". An axis is an axis.

emerydc8

#32
Witness the impossible: https://youtu.be/hxu8f58AgbE

Quote
Of course, it moves in steps, as expected. In a range between -1000 and +1000 you have 2000 units. For slider axes the neutral zone feature is a resolution function. When 1 is set, the resolution is 2000 steps (2000/1=2000). When 500 is set, the resolution is 4 steps (2000/500=4). My question was if you get 4 steps. I want to check if the math works on your system.

Yes, 4 steps here.

Hopefully this will better describe the problem I'm having. The thrust levers appear to be all the way back at idle, but even if they are a fraction of an inch forward of idle (which they are), they will not allow reverse thrust activation. When I move the throttles completely back to idle with the PSX touchscreen, then I can get reverse to deploy.
https://youtu.be/kMNMwPbGJF0


emerydc8

Jack,

Thanks for the tip. I will look into this program if I can't find a solution without having to download another program. It seems that the more programs and more input devices I have on my computer, the more problems I end up having.
Jon

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: emerydc8 on Tue,  9 Jan 2018 03:26
Witness the impossible: https://youtu.be/hxu8f58AgbE

I can't read the numbers as the video is very blurry, but it looks like you turned the others off in a moment when the others were not at idle; there are still values displayed. Anyway, this part of the test is not so relevant.


QuoteHopefully this will better describe the problem I'm having. The thrust levers appear to be all the way back at idle, but even if they are a fraction of an inch forward of idle (which they are), they will not allow reverse thrust activation. When I move the throttles completely back to idle with the PSX touchscreen, then I can get reverse to deploy.
https://youtu.be/kMNMwPbGJF0

Understood. That's why I suggested a greater neutral zone, greater than 30 (negative in your case, e.g. -100). Did you try this?

Also I wanted to know if you can move the forward throttles fully aft at all when you set the greatest neutral zone possible (-500). I just want to know if the neutral zone has any effect at all on your system. I know that a greater neutral zone will reduce the resolution.

emerydc8

#35
QuoteUnderstood. That's why I suggested a greater neutral zone, greater than 30 (negative in your case, e.g. -100). Did you try this?

-100 had no effect. Still running into the same problem as in my video.

QuoteAlso I wanted to know if you can move the forward throttles fully aft at all when you set the greatest neutral zone possible (-500). I just want to know if the neutral zone has any effect at all on your system. I know that a greater neutral zone will reduce the resolution.

When the neutral zone is set to 500 and I push the throttles up, they go forward staggered and when I pull them back to idle, engines 2 and 4 were over a knob-width above idle with the physical levers all the way back.

The situ I am using in the above-video was made with a set of Jetmax throttles, so it might have saved the position set by those throttles when they were slightly above idle (by a fraction of an inch). I took that situ and moved the thrust levers fully aft to the idle stops using the PSX touchscreen as I did in my video, then I saved it. With the throttles saved in the fully aft position I am able to get all four reversers to consistently deploy. But if I move the throttles forward, starting out with that fresh situ, and then try to reverse, it is hit-or-miss since all of them don't usually go back to the full idle stop.

Hardy Heinlin

QuoteWhen the neutral zone is set to 500 and I push the throttles up, they go forward staggered and when I pull them back to idle, engines 2 and 4 were over a knob-width above idle with the physical levers all the way back.
I don't understand this. When 500 is set, the forward throttle resolution should consist of 4 positions: Fully forward, half forward, half aft, fully aft.

All USB signals between 1000 and 500 should then put the PSX lever fully forward.
All USB signals between 501 and 0 should put the PSX lever half forward.
All USB signals between -1 and -500 should put the PSX lever half aft.
All USB signals between -501 and -1000 should put the PSX lever exactly to idle.

(If you use a negative value, the axis is reversed.)

If this neutral zone stuff has no effect at all in your system, I have no idea how to provide any solution at all on the PSX side. Why does it work with other devices and not with the Throttletek? It's just an input signal like any other input signal. So bizarre.

...


OK ... I'll try a different solution in the next PSX update. Maybe it will help. Maybe ...


emerydc8

#37
Thanks, Hardy. Not to start a feud between PSX and Throttletek, but he has pretty much washed his hands with any problems regarding interfacing with PSX. Here is his position on why it's not working. It's a shame because the TQ build is not bad and it's pretty much the only game in town unless you want to chase down a real set and convert them. Not even FDS will make a 744 TQ.

QuoteMy friend,

Is all software issue... You test the throttle with xplane or PMDG 747 works amazing.

Is the way the program handles the pots and the bodnar controller. Ask him I asked long ago and he blew me do I did not insost plus it worked... So ask him is not my throttle the problem. The throttle is a joystick controller connected to axis as you can see they are callibrated properlly but maybe since he is your friend he can helpyou out a bit woth this.

Regards

Roberto

Sent from my Huawei Mobile


-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: 777 TQ
From: azemb@aol.com
To: roberto@throttletek.com
CC:


    Is not a pot issue is a software issue... And this guy doesn't like to help I insisted him a lot because there are null zones for the axis...

    So the pots are not the problem you have to try and tweak as he says in the post trying negative and positive values... The problem is so stupid you have 1% above idle it wont go to reverse... And that is the problem...

    Regards

    Roberto

    Sent from my Huawei Mobile


On my TQ, full-forward is -1000, half way is 0, and idle thrust is 1000.

Hardy Heinlin

Do you remember the problem with the toe brake pedals? The USB signal didn't reach the maximum that was necessary to release the parking brake lever. I think the problem was solved by a trick I implemented in PSX 10.0.9a, and I think I can apply that same trick for your trottles.

Just for a test: Can you assign a forward throttle to "Both toe brake pedals" and see if the throttle pushes the toe brakes to the max with a neutral zone value of ca. 100 (or -100)?

emerydc8

Yes, the #1 throttle will push both toe brakes from 1000 to -1000 with a neutral zone of 100.