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Throttletek Axis problem

Started by Icarus747, Mon, 19 Jun 2017 21:41

Icarus747

Finally got my Throttletek quadrant.  Power levers work fine, but reversers, speedbrakes and flap axes are reversed.  (i.e. flaps 30 is up and up is 30.)  Any way to reverse these axes in PSX?
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Yup. Enter negative null zones.


H

Icarus747

Can you be a little more specific please?  The only parameter I can change is supposed to be set to 10 according to throttletek.  Do you mean set it to -10?  Thanks.
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers


Icarus747

Okay Jeroen, that helped but there are still issues.  Roberto says he has never seen this before:

Load a scenario.  Take off.  Decide to reject or do a circuit and land... same thing happens:  Maybe reversers 1 & 4 deploy and 2&4 do nothing.  Try it again and maybe this time 1, 2, & 4 work and three does nothing.  Then... they all work fine.  Then back to only a couple working.  The kicker is, everything moves as it should on the USB config page in PSX.  All the reverser numbers change as they should, in unison, but they don't in the sim.

WTF?!  Over.  lol
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

cavaricooper

FWIW I have seen similar occurrences re. reverse with my PFC throttles (via a Leo Bodnar controller).  It isn't anything I can repeat predictably and so I haven't spoken up yet.... no pattern identified, mostly they work fine...

Best- C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

I bet that the reversers don't work because the (forward) throttles are not close enough to the idle stops. There are interlocks at work that prevent the same engine to be both in forward and in reverse.

Hardy, is there a way  to get exact throttle info out? Just look at certain network variables would be enough?


H

Icarus747

Brilliant!  I brought up the throttle quad page in PSX and noticed in this case, throttle 2&3 were just a molecule (and I mean a barely noticeable molecule, lol!) forwad of idle.  I could just barely see it.  I grabbed them with the mouse and sure enough the throttle came back just a bit nd the reversers deployed.  I set the null zone to -5 instead of minus 10, and it may have helped a little.  I'm going to play with it.  Good work and thanks for your help!
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Icarus747

Well, now that I know what the problem is, I have no idea how to fix it.  Messing with throttle null zones did nothing to help.  I re-calibrated in Windows and now ALL 4 of them are susceptible to not going to idle!  Ideas?
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Hardy Heinlin

#9
If the hardware idle signal doesn't reach full -1000 or +1000,
you need to set the neutral zone further away from zero, not closer to zero.

E.g.

if your hardware idle signal vibrates between ...

-1000 and -800 (difference 200) set your neutral zone to +250.

+1000 and +800 (difference 200) set your neutral zone to -250.

That extra 50 is there to be on the safe side.

Also check if there is any electric noise in the forward throttle signals while the reverse throttles are moving. Increase the neutral zone if necessary.


Regards,

|-|ardy


Hoppie, in the network the throttles are in the Qs "Tla". Forward and reverse are in one common integer per engine, ranging from +5000 to -8925 (+50.00° to -89.25°). Anyway, the USB signals should be tested on the USB page. Forward lever vibration shouldn't exceed forward neutral zone while reverse lever is moving.

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Is the throttle humanizer capable of keeping some throttles just out of idle?

A modification of the humanizer may be able to smack the throttle levers all against the idle or forward stops when most of them get close enough. Not exactly the "difference squeezer" but close.

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 09:58
Is the throttle humanizer capable of keeping some throttles just out of idle?

No.

It isn't even active when not 1 common lever is used for all 4 engines. If you use 4 hardware levers, you have a real human on the levers.

Icarus747

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 01:38
If the hardware idle signal doesn't reach full -1000 or +1000,
you need to set the neutral zone further away from zero, not closer to zero.

E.g.

if your hardware idle signal vibrates between ...

-1000 and -800 (difference 200) set your neutral zone to +250.

+1000 and +800 (difference 200) set your neutral zone to -250.

That extra 50 is there to be on the safe side.

Also check if there is any electric noise in the forward throttle signals while the reverse throttles are moving. Increase the neutral zone if necessary.

This didn't work.  Throttles vibrate from 997 to 1000.  Null set at 10.  Setting them to a negative number as you indicate reverses the axis.  Also, when I change the null zone the other number changes as well on SOME axi

If I increase the number none of them work. 
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Icarus747 on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:09
Also, when I change the null zone the other number changes as well on SOME axi

Which number? The null zone values of some other axes?

Did you assign additional functions, e.g. an axis for pair 1+2, an axis for pair 3+4, or an axis for all 4, which are not used but still assigned?

Can you make a screenshot of your USB page?


QuoteThrottles vibrate from 997 to 1000.

How do the forward throttles vibrate when you're moving the reverse levers?

Have you tried null zones of 100 and 200?

Icarus747

I assume by null zone you mean the NEUTRAL point on the USB page.  Sometimes when I changed that the number to the right of it also changed on one throttle.  Dropped maybe 20.

So what I did was lay my hand across the idle point, maybe a 1/4 inch above idle.  Then I recalibrated in Windows and faked out the calibration to think the 1/4" above idle point was idle.  This works about 9 times out of 10.  I guess the other times I will just pretend I have a malfunction on landing, lol!  But I would like this to be corrected the right way.

Randy
THRUST REF, VNAV SPEED!

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Icarus747 on Wed, 21 Jun 2017 13:38
I assume by null zone you mean the NEUTRAL point on the USB page.  Sometimes when I changed that the number to the right of it also changed on one throttle.  Dropped maybe 20.

I mean neutral zone. The value to the right is the raw USB signal input. That input is independent from the neutral zone filter. If that signal input changes while you're entering a neutral zone value, then it's pure coincidence, maybe due to vibrations on your desk.

Three stages:

Input (displayed on USB page ) >> Neutral zone filter (editable) >> Output (used in the aircraft sim)

Does your throttle lever on the PSX flight deck go to idle when you first move it to the max thrust limit? I mean, is there any A/T induced relative thrust lever position additive involved? When the hardware levers are lower than the A/T commanded position (white command thrust line on EICAS), you will never be able to remove that additive until you "squeeze" it out by moving the lever to the max, or by pressing the A/T disconnect switch a 3rd time (1. push disconnect, 2. push remove alert, 3. push sync software position with hardware position).


|-|ardy



emerydc8

Quote from: Icarus747 on Tue, 20 Jun 2017 20:47
Okay Jeroen, that helped but there are still issues.  Roberto says he has never seen this before:

Load a scenario.  Take off.  Decide to reject or do a circuit and land... same thing happens:  Maybe reversers 1 & 4 deploy and 2&4 do nothing.  Try it again and maybe this time 1, 2, & 4 work and three does nothing.  Then... they all work fine.  Then back to only a couple working.  The kicker is, everything moves as it should on the USB config page in PSX.  All the reverser numbers change as they should, in unison, but they don't in the sim.

WTF?!  Over.  lol

I am running into the exact problem here. I tried recalibrating with the throttles off the idle stop but it doesn't seem to have any effect. Changing the PSX sensitivity doesn't seem to have any material effect either.

Jon

cavaricooper

#17
I have to preface this with "I am ignorant about these things"...

Would a simple axis calibration program (a la FSUIPC) for PSX be possible?  Nothing complex, just intercept the USB joystick axis for calibration, end points and axis' reversing. If so, I would unstintingly support such an endeavor.

Best- C

PS- I seem to remember PS1 had joystick "calibration" within the program itself... "remembering SLOOOOW joystick movements during calibration". 

If this could be done within OR 3rd PARTY (Gary, Mark, JP, Bernd, Nico, Hoppie et al are you reading this?) it would eliminate this problem.
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

emerydc8

I can start a situ on the end of the runway and pull all four into reverse, but as soon as I push the throttles off the idle detent and pull them back to idle in order to reverse (for an RTO), I am usually not able to get more than two engines in reverse. When I move the non-reversing throttles back a fraction of an inch to idle using the touchscreen in virtual PSX, I am able to to get the reverse to deploy. The non-reversing engines are just sitting a fraction of an inch off idle, preventing them from going into reverse.

I hope I didn't waste $4000.

Hardy Heinlin

I don't understand the description of the problem. Let's try it vice versa: I explain a feature of PSX and you tell me if that may also explain your problem.

The feature is this (in PSX and on the real 744): When a reverse lever is pulled from forward idle, it takes about 2 seconds until the engine's reverser sleeves are deployed. Only when they are deployed you can pull the reverser lever further up to apply reverse thrust. In the real throttle mechanism the lever is interlocked during this time delay; in your Throttletek model there is probably no such interlock, and you probably move your Throttletek lever up into the reverse thrust range before the time delay in PSX is passed. When the time delay passes while the Throttletek lever is at max reverse thrust already, there is no mechanical headroom anymore to move the virtual lever in PSX to the position where the Throttletek lever is (the Throttletek lever just can't move further because it is at max reverse already). This may explain one part of your problem. You should only move your Throttletek levers into the reverse thrust range when all REV flags are green. -- The other part of the problem may be this: To get more realism in PSX, each engine has a slightly different delay; the four delays differ by some milliseconds. This can be seen on the EICAS: The four REV flags change from amber to green not exactly at the same time. So when you moved your Throttletek levers too early, you may sometimes catch just some of the four engines; those whose REV flag were green during the lever motion. When the motion is quick, a few milliseconds may have a great effect on the remaining lever headroom.

So, does this explain your problem?


Regards,

|-|ardy