trying to fly straight (am i doing something wrong?)

[florismulock]

Hi all,


i never could make the plane fly straight ( i mean literally zero on vs) when flying manually. it always go up and down even with trimming. so i always need to adjust it with the yoke.
  Am i doing something wrong? or is this the same in real life? (poor pilots then its nearly impossible to hold it on 2000 feet)    i know with the PMDG airplanes flying straight is very easy

i am using an pro flight yoke system  from saitek and the rudder from saitek.  settings: 30 for elevator  30 for aileron


thanks a lot!


floris

[Avi]

2 things:

1. You do fly inside a dynamic atmosphere (real world and PSX, don't know about FSX).
2. Every single second passes, you lose weight and your CoG changes (microscopic change, but a change). You can't expect no effect.

Cheers,

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Floris,

I find manual flying in PSX is very easy; as easy as in 744 full flight sims.

First thing: Disengage the autothrottle*, enlarge the PFD to real size, and fly a pitch attitude, not an altitude.

If this doesn't help, we can analyse your problem only if you do two things:

1. Describe how your USB null zones are set and how your USB controls respond.

2. Make a video of the EICAS status display and PFD while you are manually flying.


Cheers,

|-|ardy


* The autothrottle destabilizes manual level flying: If you slow down due to nose up motion, the thrust increases which amplifies the nose up motion even more (because the engines are under the wing, causing a nose-up rotation). Vice versa, if you accelerate due to nose down motion, the thrust decreases which amplifies the nose down motion even more. This is a real-world effect and PSX models this effect very accurately. If you try this in a simplified simulator, or in a fly-by-wire simulator (777, Airbus), I guess there will be no such thrust induced pitch rotation. Anyway, on the 744 you should disconnect the A/T if you fly level manually.

[acannata]

Dear Floris,

PMDG offers games. PSX is a different story.
Pros say:  "Trim half as what you think you need". Because excessive trimming is a common error and leads to instability.
You have to find the right ATTITUDE for each speed and thrust setting in order to achieve level flight.

Aldo

[emerydc8]

I find manual flying in PSX is very easy; as easy as in 744 full flight sims.

I'd say it's almost identical to the big sim. Three-engine approaches are actually easier with PSX than the big sim.

Not to insult the users of FSX/P3d-based sim software, but the posts on those websites flabbergast me. Most of these guys haven't even figured out how to use VNAV correctly -- partly because their software doesn't even model it correctly. But they don't even know enough to tell the difference, nor do they care to learn how it really should work. Instead, they tend to be fixated on eye candy and add-on weather/traffic/flight planning packages as if this will make them better pilots. If they knew how far off their software really was from reality, they would dump it and migrate to PSX immediately. Just my 2 cents.

[Dirk Schepmann]

Am i doing something wrong? or is this the same in real life? (poor pilots then its nearly impossible to hold it on 2000 feet)    i know with the PMDG airplanes flying straight is very easy

It's funny because I find that it's just the other way around. ;-) I really like the PMDG 737NG and the 777, but if you zoom the PFD and ND in PSX to the real size (approx. 16x16 cm) you'll get an incredible smooth and sharp display which makes hand-flying really enjoyable.

Make small adjustments and wait for the aircraft to stabilize. A combination of practice and fine-tuning of your controls might be necessary. With the right combination of trim, pitch and thrust the 744 is stable like a brick..

Best regards,
Dirk

[jtsjc1]

I find manual flying in PSX is very easy; as easy as in 744 full flight sims.

I'd say it's almost identical to the big sim. Three-engine approaches are actually easier with PSX than the big sim.

Not to insult the users of FSX/P3d-based sim software, but the posts on those websites flabbergast me. Most of these guys haven't even figured out how to use VNAV correctly -- partly because their software doesn't even model it correctly. But they don't even know enough to tell the difference, nor do they care to learn how it really should work. Instead, they tend to be fixated on eye candy and add-on weather/traffic/flight planning packages as if this will make them better pilots. If they knew how far off their software really was from reality, they would dump it and migrate to PSX immediately. Just my 2 cents.

And we have the best programmer. I don't think ANY payware developer put in anywhere close to the amount of time Hardy has fine tuning just VNAV alone. Forget about the other systems, nothing comes close to PSX.

[emerydc8]

I couldn't agree more.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Those 30 values for elevator and aileron spell doom. Try zero, one, or two. These values are NULL ZONES. You want them as small as possible, so that the jitters of your stick with your hands off are just masked out. If you set them high, you effectively turn your smooth stick into a switch.

After setting them very small, carefully observe the yoke position indicators at the top-left corner. They should smoothly response to your yoke input and move from center to max deflection exactly as your yoke, no more, no less. With the smallest possible null zone to suppress jitter, and the max stick deflection equal to max indicator deflection, you use the full range of your stick to control the yoke.

Note that this is a yoke deflection indicator -- what your control surfaces on the wings and tailplane do is something entirely different!


Hoppie

[Hardy Heinlin]

30 for the null zone is pretty small actually -- if it's for a regular potentiometer and not for a hall sensor like in the Thrustmaster Warthog. The whole range is 1000. So, 30 is just 3% of it.

The last time I used my old Logitech stick I had to increase its null zone to 300 :-)

I think there are two categories of USB hardware:

1. Hardware with very strong springs, so that full deflection requires a lot of muscle force:
Such hardware must not demand a large null zone, i.e. the electric output must be nearly jitter-free. Such stiff hardware must allow the user to make small, effective deflections. The product is useless if it requires large deflections and high muscle force for small aerodynamic corrections.

2. Hardware with very light springs, so that full deflection is as easy as moving a mouse:
Such hardware, typically, is very cheap and inaccurate, and thus demands a large null zone to inhibit the electric jitter. The user can't expect to make small aerodynamic corrections just by small deflections. It won't work due to the large null zone. But if it's used for a heavy, high-inertia aircraft model like the 747, small aerodynamic corrections are still possible, even if the control feels like a switch: Just don't hold the (possibly full) deflection for longer than one second. You have two dimensions: Inches and seconds. If the inches can't be reduced, reduce the seconds. Don't hold the stick. Just move the stick momentarily out of center every now and then. By "out of center" I mean 50 to 100%. It doesn't matter as it's a "switch". Relevant is just the duration. Most of the time the switch must be centered.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[florismulock]

today after trying  i managed to make it work.  only needed to adjust the thrust and the trim to make the plane completely level.  during a soft turn i could make it work aswell but during the hard turn (+ 45 degrees) it was hard to maintain the same level (i couldnit make it work) (but perhaps that is practice)

o no not zero, if i enter zero everything is way to sensitive.

perhaps i had a bug yesterday. 

Just in case  i will upload a video tomorrow with my demonstration

[emerydc8]

FWIW, I have my aileron and elevator set to 40, but I am using PFC Cirrus controls with the Hall effect sensor. PSX behaves exactly like the real sim during steep turns (without the motion, of course). Steep turns are one of the harder maneuvers to do right in the sim. Lots of guys have problems maintaining +/- 100'. It takes some practice. Some airlines will actually let you use Flight Path Vector, which makes it much easier, but that's almost like cheating. You might want to try it first with FPV until you get the feel of it. The N1 figures I gave (67% and 71%) are for a weight of 620,000 lbs/280,000 kg.

[Hardy Heinlin]

In my opinion, to check the altitude drift during level flight, you can also use the V/S indicator instead of the FPV. The V/S shows short term IRS motion just like the FPV does. Barometric altitude drift is involved in the V/S indication for long term calibration only. I find the FPV is useful when a certain descent path angle is desired, e.g. for a 3° non-precision approach. It's the only instrument that shows the vertical path angle in degrees. But for level flight the target is 0°; that's identical to 0 fpm on the V/S. Not a big difference. However, it's nice that the FPV is located on the attitude indicator; this may make the pilot's instrument scanning easier. On the other hand, you have to scan the altitude tape and the adjacent V/S area anyway.

I wonder if V-bar FD users ever use the FPV. In the 1990s the FPV installation was optional. Now it's installed on all 744 aircraft. Northwest Airlines had the V-bar triangle on the horizon and had no FPV installed. The FPV would have been hidden by the triangle anyway, or not hidden but the pitch scale would have been hidden by the triangle. The V-bar triangles on other aircraft (e.g. 777) have a cutout in the middle so that the pitch scale and the FPV can be seen. I've thought the LCD version on the 744 has this V-bar cutout too. But it hasn't. Both CRT and LCD versions have that solid black triangle which makes the FPV rather useless. So, do V-bar users ever use the FPV?


|-|ardy

[emerydc8]

From my experience, a lot of the 744 pilots I have talked to don't even know what the FPV does. It's just a switch on the ECP that you don't dare touch or the wings fall off. Those who do know about FPV know it can be used for steep turns and for maintaining altitude while maneuvering if the F/D fails. On the other hand, my friends on the Bus use it regularly.

[florismulock]

hi all

here the video i have maded. could you look into the matter. i think it works normally now but just want to know for sure (normal i mean flight dynamics and behaver (yoke input and reaction of plane for keeping it flying straight)

see the youtube link  https://youtu.be/KHnmr8kRa00   (p.s. just uploaded the video so it is possible that you have to wait till youtube  gives the video "a go")

thanks a lot!

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi,

first of all, the PFD is too small. I feel like sitting on the jump seat, one meter behind the captain :-) It's pretty hard to fly the aircraft from the jump seat ...

Well, as for the steep turns: You need to practise attitude flying, you need to correct altitude drifts before they become bigger. Don't chase the altitude; focus on a specific pitch attitude. Increase the size of the attitude indicator, otherwise you won't see those fine pitch drifts. There are good training tips in the forum post above:

http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=3972.msg41922#msg41922


Regards,

|-|ardy

[florismulock]

yes but is it funtioning normal?

[florismulock]

the sim is working as it should? back sheet? you sure? if i make it more bigger then i cant see the window seems to me that the captain seat gives the pilot a view from the windows and the instruments

[Hardy Heinlin]

The aerodynamic behaviour looks normal, yes.

By the way, what happened to the IRS? :-) WX radar attitude, groundspeed, antiskid etc. are missing ...

[Will]

Hi florismulock,


Take a look at this thread: http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=1999.0


You can see an example of how to use the layouts feature of PSX to enlarge the PFD.