Grounded for nearly two months so far — thank you, Windows 10

[cavaricooper]

Brian-

Glad it may help you get back to PSX... Do let us know how you get sorted.  Like you, I have a list of the critical updates beside my machines... Hopefully, now that the "free" upgrade is behind us, and the hue and cry has been sounded, MS will behave more ethically in re. pushing out invasive "adware" about W10....

Best- C

[Phil Bunch]

Another suggestion re managing and selecting MS Windows updates: 

I depend on a PC newsletter that includes a weekly "patch watch" section specifying which MS patches and updates are safe to install, which ones have not been tested adequately, and which ones should be avoided.  This section also has links to things the user can do to avoid or undo being hijacked by MS updates, etc.

http://windowssecrets.com/

I have found the least expensive (25 US dollar per year) option to be satisfactory.  I've subscribed for several years and enjoy each weekly edition. 

I hope this recommendation is useful - I have no connection to this newsletter other than as a subscriber.  As with everything of this nature, YMMV.

[cavaricooper]

Brian-

Just checking in mate... Any progress? Fingers x'ed you'll be flying Hardy's latest update soon!



C

[brian747]

Hello, Carl!

How kind of you to be interested in what is turning out to be a mini-saga!     

Unfortunately, I have also been heavily handicapped by an absence of time, which has naturally resulted in a considerable absence of progress in recent weeks.

But in spite of that, I am moving forward — albeit much more slowly than I would like. A brief summary would be:

* Windows 7 is now working in dual boot mode with W10 (this arrangement is just in case they ever manage to *fix* W10, having now broken PowerShell and webcams and who knows what else, but we can only hope...). However I would add a word of caution to anyone else who might be rashly thinking of attempting the dual boot — apparently, this configuration is not approved by Microsoft, notably since a mix of GPT and MBR disks during the process can allegedly cause "data corruption".     

* Naturally, with W7 finally installed I did immediately encounter the "everlasting Windoze Update" problem (it took 24 hours for it to apply 230 fixes, and on restarting Windoze it then reverted 226 of them), and I worked my way through Steve's helpful suggestions before turning to the Internet for more. Eventually (since I had tried quite a large number of them by that point) Windoze Update started running normally again. But which fix (or combination thereof) really worked the necessary magic I now can't be sure.

* As if that wasn't enough hassle for one build, when it came to installing Java (something which has gone quite happily on a number of occasions in the past) I was unable to get that to work, either. Once again I worked my weary way through various combinations of suggested fixes, but the Control Panel applet stubbornly refused to show the Java CP, and PSX understandably declined to start. The solution eventually turned out to be that I needed to set JAVAW.EXE and JP2LAUNCHER.EXE to run in compatibility mode for Windows NT. (Go figure....  <sigh> ). This was a brand new solution to a novel problem that I hadn't encountered before, but having done that PSX then started up, and I was able to start to appreciate Hardy's latest magic.    8-)

So I'm about to begin the installation of FSX and Acceleration, EZCA, AS16+ASCA, DX10 Fixer, the hardware interfaces, the scenery, and all the fun of *that* particular fair — culminating in (hopefully) getting VisualPSX to provide the interface to the FSX scenery. As someone who derives much additional enjoyment from the FSX "eye candy" and who would accordingly be extremely unwilling to forego the add-on delights of FSX's scenery added to PSX, this is my ultimate objective.

However, in view of the problems encountered so far, please wish me luck....     

Cheers,

Brian

[cavaricooper]

Brian-

ABSOLUTELY- GOOD LUCK!  It's a lovely thing when it all comes together... Left Luxembourg for Athens yesterday, and the approach over the mountains with mesh, Orbx FTX, Vector LC and Europe, into FlyTampa Athens was stunning.

AS16 with ASCA add so much to the atmospheric visuals...

Keep us posted, and tear yourself away from the salt mines every once in a while

Best- C

[brian747]

Hi, C!

>"...the approach over the mountains with mesh, Orbx FTX, Vector LC and Europe, into FlyTampa Athens was stunning."

<sigh>   Envy is a terrible thing...       But I have to say that Athens is one of my favourite European locations for the visuals. Soon, I hope!   

Many thanks for your good wishes, which are much appreciated,

Cheers,

Brian

[brian747]

One last (I hope!) update on this long-running saga —

Those following this thread may recall that during the W7 FSX installation work I encountered the problem of the dreaded disk corruption as a result of dual-booting with W10.

In fact part of the problem (but by no means all) turned out to be my own fault. At some point I must have taken my eye off the ball, with the result that although I have separate PSX and FSX installations for W10 and W7, it turned out that one of my W7 links was pointing to the W10 installation — which of course was *on the W10 disk*. Now accessing this, as mentioned earlier in this thread, is apparently a 7+10 dual booting no-no, and in consequence I received a BSOD (UNEXPECTED KERNEL MODE TRAP). And sure enough when I rebooted I was informed that all five of my disks required checking for errors.  <DEEP sigh>  I confirmed this for myself once I was up and running again:

C:\Windows\system32>fsutil dirty query h:
Volume – h: is Dirty

C:\Windows\system32>fsutil dirty query c:
Volume – c: is Dirty

...and so on, for all of them — even including the recovery partition.

But after the chkdsk repairs, it turned out that some data and a few O/S files had gone missing.  <sigh>  I will skip over the tedious re-stitching that was required, and also the fact that the whole 'dirty disk' scenario was repeated when I rebooted into W7 (which seems daft, but apparently that's how it works: although at least there was no missing data that time), and simply say that the whole regrettable incident cost me a lot of time to put right.   

To try and ensure that it didn't happen again I implemented a fix that (OK, 20:20 hindsight speaking, here) I should have put in place from the start had I thought it important enough — i.e. arranged matters such that the W7 system disk is invisible from W10, and vice versa. I would encourage anyone else pioneering with a W10 dual-boot scenario to do the same — from the very beginning!   

So is all well, now?

Sadly no, it isn't — at least not with Windows 10. Those who like happy endings please look away now.

Having at long last completed my W7 installation of PSX and FSX, today I undertook a short check vlight from Oslo to Copenhagen in Windows 7 in PSX, also using all the VisualPSX/FSX bells and whistles (AS16, GSX, and the rest). I'm hugely relieved to report that this was completely successful, and I landed at a destination for the first time in over two months. Celebrations took place, as you can imagine.  8-)

Then I tried exactly the same vlight in Windows 10. I should have known that this would be pushing my luck, and sure enough it froze at a random point whilst I was climbing to cruise altitude, as it has done in W10 from the beginning (even when PSX is running without any FSX add-ons). No wonder Micro$oft were reticent about mentioning any fix for the freezing problems when they released their last W10 update — for me (and, I suspect, for many others) the freezes remain unresolved.

Since the W7 and the W10 installations are close copies of each other, and the hardware is the same, the fact that the freeze occurs only when W10 is the Operating System has to be, I cannot help but feel, significant.

So I won't be booting into Windows 10 again any time soon, especially because after the freeze had occurred I went back to W7 only to find that it wanted to chkdsk all my disks again — a process which takes nearly fifteen minutes for 10Tb of disk real estate, even when (as in this case) no problems were found on any of them. So Windows 7 will be fine for me until such time as Micro$oft get their act together.

At last I'm finally back vlying again, thanks to a complete reinstall, and to good ol' Windows 7.     

Cheers,

Brian

[neilnicholson]

As a backup solution, you could try the free open source Clonezilla software, saved me many times can even to distributed backups of sererval systems hard drives & partitions over a local network. I use it all the time at work for the user to keyboard errors he he.

[asboyd]

Guys,
I have updated my P3D machine to Windows 10 64bit Anniversary and have had no issues with it.
I run PSX  on a different machine (which I have not updated yet due to Mcafee issues)
But so far my laptop PC that runs the CDU's via PSXSeecon and my P3D main scenery machine are both running OK without any freeze or BSOD issues at all....
I have noticed that my machines ALL required driver updates after the Anniversary patch was installed though and I completed that before running P3D or PSXSeecon...

Cheers,
Alex B

[brian747]

@Neil

Thanks for that, Neil, but I can assure you that my backup provisions are rock solid. And TBH I prefer to have backups on external hard drives rather than clouds (whose name makes me feel as though they ought to be classified as vapourware, which in turn makes me nervous).     

@Alex

That's interesting - thank you: can you tell me which drivers needed updating, though, and how did you check/update them? I have concluded from the nature of the problems I have that they are probably driver-related, but feel a little reluctant to install drivers that aren't on the motherboard manufacturer's approved list. (Apart from the GPU, obviously).    8-)

Cheers,

Brian

[neilnicholson]

I use external drives with Clonezilla, no cloud required. I carry out partition backups on the system drive and sector by sector backups of all user data on the other drives.

[asboyd]

Brian,
Apart from my laptops, I build all my own PCs from parts purchased separately.
For the main scenery PC I always use AMD processors and give them as much memory as the M/B will handle.
I also prefer the Gigabyte motherboards as they have given me reliability over my many years in ICT....
I use Nvidia cards for the graphics again due to reliability and ease of update.

So when I updated to Windows 10 x64 I waited until both the M/B's and Graphics drivers were released, backed up my PC using Macrium Reflex (Pro), then installed Windows 10 clean. I then cleaned up all my disks by reformatting them under Windows 10, then did a simple install of P3D and FSX, so they were created in the registry, then restored the backups over the top.

For the Laptops, I always use the latest x64 bit driver even though it may be Windows 8.1 not 10 and have never had an issue.
I guess it takes faith to do what I do, but it is also something I was doing professionally for 38 years, so a little experience helps.
As far as the anniversary update went, the only machine I updated was my scenery machine (as it is probably the easiest for me to restore should anything have gone wrong). I did have to remove my Mcafee VSE as Patch 8 is still not available (and working). So currently I have another AV running on it as it does not really connect to the outside world and I have a trusted and non-trusted network system in place.
At present P3D is still performing very well (I cannot afford the update to V3 so still running V2) and I use ORBX terrain to give me very realistic flying scenery. The interface to PSX works very well, so at present all things are OK....
Will be interesting to see what happens with Dovetail and their new FS later in the year though, I may have to look about for more parts to do a hardware upgrade...

Cheers,
Alex B

[brian747]

@Neil

Ah, I see - thank you. I had thought you meant that all your backups were in the cloud, a situation which would make me nervous.   


@Alex

Thank you for those details, which made for very interesting reading, and indeed it seems that our approaches are remarkably similar. I build my own PCs, too (and never had a problem until I decided that it should be safe to try W10... <sigh> ). Asus mobos, Intel processors, and nVidia GPUs, here; with Macrium for backups. I have stuck to FSX in DX10 mode with Steve's Fixer, and so never found any need to move to P3D. I froze my Orbx setup as at March of this year, since several of my simming friends have experienced horrible problems with blurries following the forced updates in April and following (I never used Orbx airports anyway, since relatively few of them are suitable for a 744).

I also cheat a lot in a very similar way to reduce the pain of FSX reinstallation, although I do encounter problems with the dreaded couatl (GSX etc.) and one or two other things — but a re-reinstall on top has always fixed them for me. In my case the faith comes from 41 years in the business, so we might have met were it not for the small issue of being half a world apart.   

But to ask my original question more explicitly: do you stick to the drivers which are featured on your mobo manufacturer's website, or use the latest versions from their original sources? I'm a little reluctant to take the latter course...

Cheers,

Brian

[asboyd]

For my M/B I use the latest on Gigabyte's web site, however for the laptops I use the drivers from the chipset manufacturer. I usually find the lappy builders drop support quicker than a blacksmith without tongs....

(That's for the older crowd)

Cheers,

Alex B

[brian747]

> "(That's for the older crowd)"

<grin>  Receiving you loud and clear, Alex.   

Yes, thank you, that makes perfect sense.

Cheers,

Brian

[brian747]

Hopefully, this post is — THE END OF THE SAGA!     

And although Windows 10 was involved initially, it turns out that <*cough*> the true underlying cause lay elsewhere.

I'll keep this as short as I can (OK, not too short, then  ), since this thread has already become too long. Basically, two things happened: (a) I ran out of drivers to update (in both W10 and W7) and yet the crashes and freezes still kept happening. Also (b) I eventually realised that if these events were happening in *both* Operating Systems then they were not (or weren't any longer, since I think some of the early ones definitely were the same as those experienced by others at around the time of the flawed Micro$oft Anniversary Update) software-driven at all, but a result of something that was going on at a deeper level.

So in the light of that epiphany I set about searching for hardware problems with my new Skylake chip — and almost straight away I hit pay dirt.

There are many references once you begin to search them out, but probably the pithiest example is to be found here — http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/01/intel-skylake-bug-causes-pcs-to-freeze-during-complex-workloads/, although in fact just quoting the title says it all: "Intel Skylake bug causes PCs to freeze during complex workloads". Since all my recent crashes and/or freezes occurred when the machine was working hard, this seemed hopeful, to say the very least.

But it's one thing for Intel to admit that the problem exists (albeit very reluctantly, it would seem) yet it's quite another for them to be seen to issue a fix. Rather like certain other companies who prefer to remain in denial about problems with their products, Intel are heavily (for commercial reasons, no doubt) into the business of saying as little about this as possible. It also appears that not all chips are affected, but only certain manufacturing runs — but anyway, happily it turns out that there *is* a fix, and one which can be applied in microcode without RMA-ing the chip (and all the hassle that goes along with that). The only snag for us consumers is that we can't be sure whether or where the fix has been applied, since Intel are still anxious not to admit that there has been a problem, right?  (Catch 22 lives...).

So I patiently held my breath until my motherboard manufacturer issued a new BIOS release at the end of last month, since it seemed to me likely that the fix should, with any luck, be in there. I then updated my BIOS, reapplied my overclock, and the machine has given me zero problems of any kind since then. And not only did the machine appear stable: it now appears that there is nothing I can do to induce it to either freeze or produce a BSOD — which is a hugely welcome change!

As a torture test I set PSX and FSX running simultaneously on a two hour vlight (a scenario in which previously the machine had never managed to get beyond about thirty minutes before auffering a BSOD or freeze), whilst in background mode I *also* exercised various elements which were pretty much certain to cause problems with the previous BIOS — playing several videos simultaneously, opening many pages in Google Chrome, copying two or three multi-gigabyte files from disk to disk at the same time, and similar high-tariff activities — but at the end of it all I still landed safely at Majorca and taxied to the stand.

Wow. 88-)

But of course, I had to be as sure as I could. So since then I have also vlown two eight-hour vlights between London and Mumbai, and one eleven hour trip from Heathrow to Tokyo Haneda — and all three have run as smoothly as I could ever wish. So at this point I think/hope that the issue has finally been addressed, and I can now sim to my heart's content in both W7 and W10. At long last!!

(Trust me to buy one of the chips affected, but hey, if you can't take a joke you shouldn't have joined, right?).    8-)

My thanks to everyone who responded to this thread for their kind comments: happily, since the problem seems to only affect a few batches of the Skylake chip then there should be a good chance that no one else on the forum will ever be affected. But this thread remains — just in case....   

Cheers, from an enormously relieved

Brian

[cavaricooper]

Brian-

SO GLAD your worries are behind you... welcome back to the long haul club.... there's something about 12+ hours I love .  With PSX so stable, and P3D so stable (particularly when acting just as a scenery generator), It's magical to plan and depart, busy ones self during cruise, and return to 100nm -TOD on the other side of the globe.  It allows me to fit long-haul into life's demands.

I for one chose to stay with Win 7 x64 when building my Skylake platform, however, your findings prove this issue could have effected either OS, so I'm glad this post will remain to assist others, for years to come.

Regardless- enjoy PSX to it's potential (you can, I'm still working on learning)

Best- C

[Phil Bunch]

Thanks for the update.  I am so relieved that your saga has come to a favorable ending.  Your description of the happy ending is delightful to read, expressing so much of the poetry of both real and simulated flight. 

-------------
Your experiences in part has made me reconsider and delay my plans to replace my own tower PC this year.  With your news about the Skylake chips, I am now even more confused and anxious.

Should I look at your journey as analogous to being struck by lightning or ordinary bad luck, and that it *probably* would not happen to me?!?! 

I don't see how there is any practical way to systematically adjust the timing for replacing my PC.  I try to pick a PC configuration that is ahead of its time with regard to component selection ("leading edge"), without becoming involved with the "bleeding edge" of unstable/unreliable performance.  This way, a several-year-old PC may perform better than most new higher end PCs for a while and still be reasonably stable and reliable.  Of course this balance won't be acceptable for people who want to be state-of-the-art as much as possible.

I am not sure there is a simple or reasonably short answer to these issues and anxieties...my current solution is to mostly leave the details of PC configuration up to a custom PC builder in Seattle.  They thoroughly test their builds, including things like using infrared cameras to certify that each PC is free from hot spots and that under multi-day heavy loads and that everything is well-cooled.

Fortunately (?), I believe that the increase in PC performance has slowed in recent years, making these worries at least somewhat reduced. 

[brian747]

@C

Thank you for that, my friend — and you're right, the relief of getting back to zimming was enormous after so much hassle!   


@Phil

Thank you for your kind words, but I would be sad if my experience caused you to alter your plans. My reasons for saying this are as follows.

I shared the story in this thread as it unfolded for me, but obviously as it was being experienced from my point of view with all the errors and omissions that an individual viewpoint inevitably entails. So although that was how I saw things, I wouldn't suppose that my experience was universal — nor, come to think of it, necessarily even true....

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, recall what happened in the final phase: I changed the BIOS, re-applied my overclock, and the problem went away. But perhaps neither of those events made that happen, in spite of the contiguity in time. Or perhaps I missed a vital step in my original overclock and so it was in fact the re-overclock that fixed things. Or maybe it was some other change in the BIOS that made the difference. Recall also that my information about the Skylake problem came from the Internet, not necessarily the most trustworthy of sources!   

Furthermore this all began when I made the classic error of simultaneously changing both hardware and also software (i.e. moving to Windows 10), which made it far harder for me to establish the cause of the issue. Would you really trust the experience of someone who would do something as daft as that?   

> "Should I look at your journey as analogous to being struck by lightning or ordinary bad luck, and that it *probably* would not happen to me?!?!"

I believe you should, for three reasons. The first I have already given; the second being that the Internet also claimed that not all chips are affected, but only *some* early manufacturing runs. Now that Intel are (allegedly) aware of the problem, I would think not only that all Skylake chips being currently manuafactured are free of it, but also that the microcode for the (alleged) fix is now present in all current and future BIOSs from the motherboard manufacturers. The third is that presumably your custom PC builder in Seattle issues a warranty with the machines they produce?

Besides, all life involves a degree of risk: I love zimming, especially deploying the utterly amazing creation that Hardy has crafted in PSX, which is a special joy. And you will recall what C.S. Lewis so tellingly said about loving —

"To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything and your heart will be wrung and possibly broken. If you want to make sure of keeping it intact you must give it to no one, not even an animal. Wrap it carefully round with hobbies and little luxuries; avoid all entanglements. Lock it up safe in the casket or coffin of your selfishness. But in that casket, safe, dark, motionless, airless, it will change. It will not be broken; it will become unbreakable, impenetrable, irredeemable. To love is to be vulnerable."

To live is to be vulnerable, too. And hence we all have to make our own choices, I guess.

I sincerely wish you every success in making your decision.    8-)

Cheers,

Brian


[Edited for a typo and an afterthought]

[asboyd]

Brain,
As with all things that have issues I believe in the old addage of changing one thing and thoroughly testing, if nothing has changed after the testing, change something else and do it again. I know this is the long anf (very) frustrating way of doing things, but us more mature and world wise folk need to pass on the kill of patience to our up coming replacements....
Glad you got it all sorted in the end.... In my position I am always using old (and 2nd hand) items to build so the hard part for me is getting drivers, but when i find one, it stays put on my NAS...

Cheers,
Alex B