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Grounded for nearly two months so far — thank you, Windows 10

Started by brian747, Sat, 13 Aug 2016 08:12

brian747

About seven weeks ago I decided to give my main simming machine a hardware upgrade. I still think that was a good decision. Unfortunately, I also decided to bite the bullet and move to Windows 10 at the same time, on the basis that Microsoft had had a year to get it right so it must have had the worst bugs kicked out of it by now, right?

Wrong.

I have spent the intervening time in a hellish haze of freezes (that only a power off will cure, and leave no trace in event logs or anywhere else) and random blue screens (I now have a collection of miscellaneous titles that I never want to see again). I have spent untold hours updating drivers, stopping services, re-testing the hardware, and making tweaks to parts of the W10 internals that I would have preferred not to know about — all to no avail. The problems started immediately, but seemed to become distinctly worse following the so-called "Anniversary Update".

As to vlying: since W10 I have never managed to get to cruise altitude without experiencing a freeze or a Blue Screen Of Death (BSOD). On many occasions I hadn't even taken off before the session was brought to an abrupt and untimely end. Basically, I have been grounded.

I knew from the 'net that many others were having these problems too, but it was only two days ago that Microsoft finally admitted that they need to provide a fix:

"Microsoft has received a small number of reports of Windows 10 freezing after installing the Anniversary Update on systems with the operating system stored on a solid-state drive (SSD) and apps and data stored on a separate drive.  This issue does not occur when starting Windows 10 in Safe Mode.

If you are experiencing this issue, we will be providing updates to this thread.  Click the Subscribe button at the end of this post if you want to be notified when this thread is updated.  In the meantime, you can work around this issue by signing into Windows 10 using Safe Mode to move your apps and data to the same drive as your operating system."


http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/windows-10-may-freeze-after-installing-the/5a60d75d-120a-4502-873c-8bfec65c82d0?auth=1     (Be aware that you need a Microsoft or an Office 365 account to be able to subscribe).

Having originally spent a long week reinstalling the scenery generator (with innumerable airports and other scenery) along with PSX into W10, not to mention migrating my many utilities and essential data, or all the time I have since spent researching various solutions from the 'net (many many suggestions out there, some of them scary ones not to be contemplated) and trying various options to try and fix the W10 freezes and BSODs, not to mention sfc and dism and burn-in tests and memory tests and all the rest, I am disinclined to return to W7 and start all over again. As for Microsoft's suggestion of moving the "apps and data to the same drive as your operating system", well if they can explain to me how to squeeze the contents of 10 Tb of fairly full HDs onto a ½Tb M.2 SSD then I will be interested to hear about it.

But I suppose that at least I can now begin to hope for some sort of official fix. Mind you, considering how long it has taken them to even acknowledge the problem, one can't be wildly optimistic that any fix provided will necessarily come soon... But then, I've been working with computers since the days of punched cards and paper tape, so my optimism about such matters is therefore somewhat inhibited.

I am posting this just in case anyone else here has been going through the same hell: to encourage them, and also to suggest that if they sign up to the Microsoft thread (URL given above) then at least they will be adding to Microsoft's awareness of how many of us are suffering from this crippling condition. OK, I suppose that in comparison to the millions of supposedly happy (?) W10 users there will only be a comparatively "small number of reports" about this, but for those of us experiencing the problems it has been — and still is — an extremely unpleasant experience.

Cheers,

Brian


(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

kiek

That sounds like hell indeed.
However, I'm using Windows 10 now for a year and recently upgraded to Anniversary on all my three PC's and no problems at all...

Nico

brian747

<smile>  I'm sincerely delighted for you, Nico, and for the vast majority who are trouble-free.

But there must be others like me who have been battling with this without knowing that it isn't a problem with their own hardware or software configuration. Being a member of this small minority has been no fun at all, so I felt that the news that Microsoft is at last looking into it should be made known, even though it's (hopefully!) of little or no relevance to most people.

As the old saying goes, "Be nice to me, I've had a hard day". Or week. Or month. Or...?    8-)

Cheers,

Brian

(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

Phil Bunch

Thanks for the info - I've been stubbornly staying with Win7 for various reasons, mostly related to the new requirement to accept all updates in one big lump without control over which driver updates one accepts.  I have been particularly concerned about Nvidia video drivers, which are often believed to require careful selection.

Also, Win7 on my PC is rock-stable, almost never crashing or hanging or blue-screening.

Is it impossible or impractical for you to simply reinstall Win7?  I hope there is a practical repair for you to implement...   I wonder if MS can realistically afford to chase down and fix bugs that only affect small numbers of users?
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch

cavaricooper

At the risk of sounding out of touch... I chose to stay with W7 x64 for my new 6700k build with M2 drives. NO REGRETS.... Perhaps one day I will move to W10 v2020... but I am happy with my decision.

I work on a Mac, hence the occasional MacOS reference, but I play on 3 networked PCs... All on W7 x64.

FWIW.

C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

Will

I use an iMac, but I had an emulator for Windows. I hadn't upgraded from Windows XP until this last Tuesday, when I went straight to Windows 10. Ah, the learning curve. It took me an hour to get it out of "tablet" mode where everything was permanently full-screened. I'm not complaining; I only use Windows for exactly one application, and that's PFPX. everything else is on the Mac.
Will /Chicago /USA

G-CIVA

Windows 7 .... Windows 7 ... Windows 7 ...

Yes I am a 'luddite' but the saying 'if it ain't broken don't fix/change it' is very true regarding Simulator OS platforms.

I am currently transitioning my 2TB + of 'stuff' from P3Dv2.5 onto v3x - still on the Win 7 platform seamlessly.

But for every one of me there is a 'progressive' who moves effortlessly onward & upward onto new OS platforms without a hitch. 
Steve Bell
aka The CC

emerydc8

Hi Brain,

Sorry to hear about your Windows problems. If it's any consolation, I just spent the past three days re-installing a clean copy of Windows 7 on my machine along with a new wireless adaptor, only to discover that the reason the PSX client kept getting kicked off line was that I forgot to install the latest 10.0.9d into the server file.  :-[ I am reminded of Peter's "paralysis by analysis" character.

I did learn a few interesting things in the process. It sounds like you already went through these with Windows 10, but for the benefit of others who may be faced with doing a reformat of Windows 7, I wanted to post them here since it literally took me 25 hours to discover.

First, Windows 7 SP1 does not recognize USB 3.0 ports, so if you're going to be reformatting from the recovery CD you better make sure your mouse and keyboard are plugged into USB 2.0 ports before starting the process.

Second, MS has a fix they can email you that allows you to calibrate a second touchscreen on the same computer. Otherwise, the touch feature may only work on one screen. (I have no idea why it worked when I installed the second screen after purchasing it last year, but it wouldn't work after reformatting.)

Third, Windows 7 seems to have an endemic problem checking and downloading updates (250 in my case) after installing a clean version. There is a Windows fix for this, which I download and installed, but still had to use the CMD prompt to reset the updating service.  http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_7-update/windows-update-hangs-on-checking-for-updates/b762abf5-655c-4a60-aabc-9f59785bd8d9

Lastly, with a Windows 7 recovery disc, you don't have to use F11 to get it to boot from CD. You just pop it in and run it as you would normally open an .exe file. If you just want to repair the system (not completely wipe it clean), select "upgrade" instead of "custom" when it opens.

So all that work to fix something that was finally fixed in a few seconds.

Jon D.

PS: I think I'll stick to Windows 7 for as long as I can after hearing about your situation. At least there's not as much customer beta testing.


Phil Bunch

Another tip that has proven to be important in my use of all computer operating systems:  Keep a reasonably fresh full image backup of your system hard drive on a separate external hard drive or some other suitable medium.

Several times in the past 10+ years I've been forced by hardware failures as well as Microsoft issues to reinstall my system hard drive (ie the "C" drive, where Windows is installed).  This restoration from an image backup only takes about 15-20 minutes, and after a few weird error messages, my Windows installation has always worked fine after one or two reboots.  This is vastly easier than reinstalling Windows and all my personal preferences and software. 

Some years ago I refined this strategy by using two independent full image backup software packages (Acronis and Dantz Retrospect backup software), and I place these image backup files on different external hard drives.

Hard drives are cheap now, and if you also only install Windows on your "C" drive and almost nothing else, this image backup file isn't very big.  I put my user applications and almost everything else on a "D" hard drive that is physically separate from the "C" drive.   In other words, I have a Windows hard drive and an Applications hard drive that also contains most of the page file.  This costs a little extra but makes it possible to safely reinstall the Windows drive without touching your software Applications files.

While these extra steps may seem excessive, I've found them to be very helpful and frustration-saving for the various operating systems I've used over the years.   Fortunately the cost of doing things like this have come down dramatically in recent years.
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch

emerydc8

QuoteSome years ago I refined this strategy by using two independent full image backup software packages (Acronis and Dantz Retrospect backup software), and I place these image backup files on different external hard drives.

Last year, I bought the Acronis True Image 2015 software and a 500GB Passport drive for that very purpose. I made an image of my entire computer and stored it on the Passport. All was working well, so I decided to screw it up by seeing if I could actually re-install the image. I ended up erasing everything on my hard drive, so I had to take it in to the shop to have them fix it. Even they had issues getting some of the drivers to work using the image that I had previously created. Acronis does everything but provide good instructions on how to use it when you need it. In the end, I wish I had never heard of Acronis.

Hessel Oosten

Had here a big problem with Win10 updating video drivers.

The Win10 NVidia one's didn't work, so  I stayed at the Win 7 video-drivers: no problem.
But after every 30 min Win10 updated .... them to Win10 generic drivers, which didn't function....

Solution in the end (and fully working):

A file which gives you the possibility to prohibit updating for chosen programs/drivers etc.

http://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/8280-windows-updates-hide-show-windows-10-a.html

Hessel

kiek

I use the  Nvidia GeForce Experience program at Win 10. It notifies you if there is a new driver version and will download and install if you say it should.
Works like a charm. Recommended. Never had any problems with the video driver.
Nico

brian747

Hi, folks!

Apologies for not responding sooner, but I've been busy attempting to devise a strategy. Basically, I suppose my mistake was making too many changes (hardware and software) at once. Hey ho. You win some, you lose some.   8-)

Many thanks, everyone, for all your kind comments and suggestions!

Here's a brief current sitrep.

As you may have noticed, in spite of Microsoft's increasingly desperate claims that "only a small number" (everything is relative, I suppose) of people are involved, not only is there still no solution to the freezes and BSODs, but now it appears that the Anniversary Update has also broken many people's webcams, too. Since there is as yet no suggestion that a solution to the mess is imminent, I have decided to return to Windows 7 Pro.

But that presents me with another problem. Windows 7 is of course totally ignorant of some modern hardware, notably my M.2 PCIe NVMe SSD device, and so it can't be installed there. Therefore I am currently installing a basic SSD just for the installation of W7: if I can manage to install it in a dual boot configuration too, then that will also hedge my bets in the hope that W10 may perhaps be as usable as it should be, one day.

I'll let you know how it turns out.    :)

Cheers,

Brian


(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

cavaricooper

Brian-

If you have Samsung M2 NVMe drives I have the driver- lmk. You just need W7 on CD and a PS2 keyboard and mouse- no issue....

C
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

emerydc8

Microsoft has no shame. I will never download another "recommended update" again.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2016/08/windows-10-microsoft-blatantly-disregards-user-choice-and-privacy-deep-dive
Quote
August 17, 2016 | By Amul Kalia
With Windows 10, Microsoft Blatantly Disregards User Choice and Privacy: A Deep Dive

A Deep Dive

Microsoft had an ambitious goal with the launch of Windows 10: a billion devices running the software by the end of 2018. In its quest to reach that goal, the company aggressively pushed Windows 10 on its users and went so far as to offer free upgrades for a whole year. However, the company's strategy for user adoption has trampled on essential aspects of modern computing: user choice and privacy. We think that's wrong.

You don't need to search long to come across stories of people who are horrified and amazed at just how far Microsoft has gone in order to increase Windows 10's install base. Sure, there is some misinformation and hyperbole, but there are also some real concerns that current and future users of Windows 10 should be aware of. As the company is currently rolling out its "Anniversary Update" to Windows 10, we think it's an appropriate time to focus on and examine the company's strategy behind deploying Windows 10.
Disregarding User Choice

The tactics Microsoft employed to get users of earlier versions of Windows to upgrade to Windows 10 went from annoying to downright malicious. Some highlights: Microsoft installed an app in users' system trays advertising the free upgrade to Windows 10. The app couldn't be easily hidden or removed, but some enterprising users figured out a way. Then, the company kept changing the app and bundling it into various security patches, creating a cat-and-mouse game to uninstall it.

Eventually, Microsoft started pushing Windows 10 via its Windows Update system. It started off by pre-selecting the download for users and downloading it on their machines. Not satisfied, the company eventually made Windows 10 a recommended update so users receiving critical security updates were now also downloading an entirely new operating system onto their machines without their knowledge. Microsoft even rolled in the Windows 10 ad as part of an Internet Explorer security patch. Suffice to say, this is not the standard when it comes to security updates, and isn't how most users expect them to work. When installing security updates, users expect to patch their existing operating system, and not see an advertisement or find out that they have downloaded an entirely new operating system in the process.

In May 2016, in an action designed in a way we think was highly deceptive, Microsoft actually changed the expected behavior of a dialog window, a user interface element that's been around and acted the same way since the birth of the modern desktop. Specifically, when prompted with a Windows 10 update, if the user chose to decline it by hitting the 'X' in the upper right hand corner, Microsoft interpreted that as consent to download Windows 10.

Time after time, with each update, Microsoft chose to employ questionable tactics to cause users to download a piece of software that many didn't want. What users actually wanted didn't seem to matter. In an extreme case, members of a wildlife conservation group in the African jungle felt that the automatic download of Windows 10 on a limited bandwidth connection could have endangered their lives if a forced upgrade had begun during a mission.

Disregarding User Privacy

The trouble with Windows 10 doesn't end with forcing users to download the operating system. Windows 10 sends an unprecedented amount of usage data back to Microsoft, particularly if users opt in to "personalize" the software using the OS assistant called Cortana. Here's a non-exhaustive list of data sent back: location data, text input, voice input, touch input, webpages you visit, and telemetry data regarding your general usage of your computer, including which programs you run and for how long.

While we understand that many users find features like Cortana useful, and that such features would be difficult (though not necessarily impossible) to implement in a way that doesn't send data back to the cloud, the fact remains that many users would much prefer not to use these features in exchange for maintaining their privacy.

And while users can disable some of these settings, it is not a guarantee that your computer will stop talking to Microsoft's servers. A significant issue is the telemetry data the company receives. While Microsoft insists that it aggregates and anonymizes this data, it hasn't explained just how it does so. Microsoft also won't say how long this data is retained, instead providing only general timeframes. Worse yet, unless you're an enterprise user, no matter what, you have to share at least some of this telemetry data with Microsoft and there's no way to opt-out of it.

Microsoft has tried to explain this lack of choice by saying that Windows Update won't function properly on copies of the operating system with telemetry reporting turned to its lowest level. In other words, Microsoft is claiming that giving ordinary users more privacy by letting them turn telemetry reporting down to its lowest level would risk their security since they would no longer get security updates1. (Notably, this is not something many articles about Windows 10 have touched on.)

But this is a false choice that is entirely of Microsoft's own creation. There's no good reason why the types of data Microsoft collects at each telemetry level couldn't be adjusted so that even at the lowest level of telemetry collection, users could still benefit from Windows Update and secure their machines from vulnerabilities, without having to send back things like app usage data or unique IDs like an IMEI number.

And if this wasn't bad enough, Microsoft's questionable upgrade tactics of bundling Windows 10 into various levels of security updates have also managed to lower users' trust in the necessity of security updates. Sadly, this has led some people to forgo security updates entirely, meaning that there are users whose machines are at risk of being attacked.

There's no doubt that Windows 10 has some great security improvements over previous versions of the operating system. But it's a shame that Microsoft made users choose between having privacy and security.
The Way Forward

Microsoft should come clean with its user community. The company needs to acknowledge its missteps and offer real, meaningful opt-outs to the users who want them, preferably in a single unified screen. It also needs to be straightforward in separating security updates from operating system upgrades going forward, and not try to bypass user choice and privacy expectations.

Otherwise it will face backlash in the form of individual lawsuits, state attorney general investigations, and government investigations.

We at EFF have heard from many users who have asked us to take action, and we urge Microsoft to listen to these concerns and incorporate this feedback into the next release of its operating system. Otherwise, Microsoft may find that it has inadvertently discovered just how far it can push its users before they abandon a once-trusted company for a better, more privacy-protective solution.


Correction: an earlier version of the blogpost implied that data collection related to Cortana was opt-out, when in fact the service is opt in.

brian747

The above accords with my experience, sadly.

But there may be more. Assuming that I can manage to get my copy of Windows 7 Pro installed, I am braced for the next problem: it seems that many users are finding that since the start of the huge push to W10 their W7 Windows Updates have suddenly started to take days to work, or sometimes not even then. This applies to new installs, too, in fact even more so (anecdotally).

That could of course be a coincidence, rather than another measure to "encourage" users to migrate to W10. More news when I (hopefully) get that far...

@C

Thank you for that, my friend.   :-)   Mine is indeed a Samsung device.   


Cheers,

Brian
(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

emerydc8

I had the same problem when I did a clean install of Windows 7 SP1. It would not update. I used the MS link posted above and luckily, using Method 1, I was able to retrieve 250 updates, but now I noticed that when I check for updates, it's back to hanging up again. I have reached the point that I will just run it without any more updates.

cavaricooper

Brian-

Here is the link- (REMOVED)

Burn to CD

Have a Win 7 x64 install disc on CD available

Have a PS2 keyboard and mouse available- NOT USB

Run the install

Load the NVMe drivers from the CD

Continue the install- you will get an error but that is due to the NVMe driver CD being where the install CD should be...

SWAP BACK to the Win7 install CD and finish the install

Get all the latest system drivers from your MB manufacturer's site

Enjoy a rock-solid STABLE system :)

As far as the updates, I did have some initial issues, but lately they have been populating just fine...

Fingers x'ed!

Best- Carl

PS- lmk when you have the drivers and I will remove the link
Carl Avari-Cooper, KTPA

G-CIVA

This is of no use to you Brian but perhaps useful for all to read around this subject - I was passed this in May 15 & immediately implemented it on all my Win 7 machines - no issues to date ...

This just happened to me so I am acutely aware of what these updates do..

I just came back from a trip and my logs show my system has been running CPU time without me being here and I tracked it down and removed two of the offending updates thinking I found them all..   then I found the system started running by itself and eating CPU with high disk access while I was using my system for productivity work and there is MORE involved.  This has to be the most intrusive nonsense I have ever seen Microsoft pull

Microsoft has decided to release updates that will EAT your memory and processor while your system runs. This was not a mistake. These updates are designed to constantly collect data about your computer for Windows 10. One of them will act like ADWARE and eventually pop up offering you Windows 10.

They will run in the background automatically with absolutely no control from the user to shut them down. They can use up to 25-35% of a quad core processor, 35-50% of a dual core and will run while you are using your computer regardless of that use OR when the system has a monitor sleep mode but the power profile is not set to sleep or hibernate.. The power profile any FS computer should be set to run HIGH PERFORMANCE in order to avoid any power management by MS during gaming operation.

This effects BOTH WINDOWS 7 and WINDOWS 8

To shut this nonsense down and make sure it does not come back, do the following

NOTE: THIS LINK PROVIDES MORE INFORMATION FOR WINDOWS 8   http://www.ghacks.net/2015/04/17/how-to-remove-windows-10-upgrade-updates-in-windows-7-and-8/

In Windows 7:

1. CONTROL PANEL - PROGRAMS AND FEATURES - on the side, click VIEW INSTALLED UPDATES

2. In the list that appears for the list of installed WINDOWS UPDATES, scroll down and locate the following updates in WINDOWS 7

KB2952664 24/05/2015
KB2990214 24/05/2015
KB3021917 10/02/2015
KB3035583 24/05/2015   

VERIFY EACH KB NUMBER BEFORE CONTINUING

3. UNINSTALL EACH UPDATE YOU FIND  - NOTE: When asked to reboot select LATER and continue until all those are uninstalled and remove them in the ORDER shown above

THEN REBOOT

Go back and check to see if those updates are all gone in the system..   if they are then check and see if you can still connect to Windows Update...    IF BOTH ARE TRUE SKIP TO #6 BELOW AND HIDE THE UPDATES AT WU.      You are done

If KB2952664 has come back or appears again, OR you cant connect to Windows Update and get a ERROR continue with #4 below after uninstalling KB2952664 again

Here is the kicker..  if you UNINSTALL KB2952664  many systems cant connect to Windows update anymore!   Really MS?  Punishment or dimwit strong-arm tactics?

4. Run this MS FIX IT tool

http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-vista/windows-update-error-8000ffff [ignore the reference to Vista]

Run with the check box aggressive mode unchecked, let it finish, close and then rerun the tool again with the check in AGGRESSIVE

5. Once finished, reboot

The above repairs Windows update from not being able to run but BE AWARE it will CLEAN/FLUSH the Windows update 'history' list but wont remove the update list

6. Once rebooted run Windows Update in MANUAL MODE   do not let MS download and install updates automatically..   the updates I noted above should reappear in the list including KB2952664 right click them all and select HIDE

KB2952664 
KB2990214
KB3021917
KB3035583

you will no longer be prompted to install those hidden nonsense updates unless MS decides to try and slip them back in again and Windows Update will work fine

For Windows 8 the process is similar.. you can review the link above to remove this garbage

EDIT: If the above FIXIT tool fails and you still can not connect to WU, Try this tool:

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/kb/947821/

Download the correct version x32 or x64 and let it repair WU. It will request you install a KB and then it will run a aggressive scan to fix issues.

It can take 10 minutes and up to 3 hours to run sometimes so if it appears to hang at like 85%, its still running..  reboot when it finished and recheck WU and don't worry about the MSfixit tools

One other option I found worked on one system, change the dropdown selection for how you get updates to: CHECK FOR UPDATES BUT LET ME CHOOSE TO DOWNLOAD/INSTALL

see if it connects. If it does and after changes are made you can switch it back to NEVER CHECK FOR UPDATES

http://www.ghacks.net/2015/04/17/how-to-remove-windows-10-upgrade-updates-in-windows-7-and-8/
Steve Bell
aka The CC

brian747

Good morning, gentlemen!

And my most sincere thanks for your help and advice.


@Carl

Thank you so much for the drivers, which are now downloaded and added to the software toolkit which I have assembled awaiting the assault on the great north slopes of Windows 7! Your drivers will be a great help.

I will post again after the attempt and let you know what happened.    :)

(Please feel free to now remove the drivers).


@Steve

Some really helpful stuff there, Steve, which will, I hope, enable me to get out of potential Update trouble.    :)

(Such a shame that powershell (as in your W8 link) doesn't allow get-hotfix in W7: I do find it very tedious to trawl through the standard Windows Update list of many pages, trying to find individual KB numbers...).

Thus far I have always run in High Performance power mode (and disabled all sleeping and hibernation and similar options); and I have the main rogue KB numbers you mention on a post-it note attached to my monitor, which I always check when selecting the "Optional" updates. I have also deployed the donationware GXW Control Panel ( http://ultimateoutsider.com/downloads/ ), which appears so far to have kept my W7 machines free of W10 threats.

But much of the rest of your kind and much-appreciated advice is new to me, so enormous thanks for that.


More news will follow....    :)

Cheers,

Brian
(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).