PFD: Rising Runway with RA inside AI

[Hardy Heinlin]

Good evening,

has anybody got a photo of the Rising Runway with the radio altitude digital readout inside the attitude indicator?

I know that UAL has it.

My question is if the RA readout has a brown (i.e. transparent) background or a black filled rectangle as a background. The latter have I seen on a 777 PFD, but that one had no Rising Runway.

It looks strange if the Rising Runway has a black filled rectangle in the middle.

Any hints? Thank you!


Cheers,

|-|ardy


P.S.: Does anybody know if the Rising Runway rises smoothly in, say, 1 foot steps -- or if it uses the same 20 ft / 2 ft steps as on the digital RA readout? Same question for the round RA dial, by the way (that optional round dial that appears below 1000 ft).

[Hardy Heinlin]

The LCD types have the localizer scale outside the attitude indicator, whereas the old CRT types have it inside the AI.

Theory:

On LCD types the RA has a black rectangle and is fixed in the lower middle of the AI, it does not move with the localizer and the Rising Runway.

On CRT types the RA has a brown background and moves with the localizer and the Rising Runway.


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[Peter Lang]

Hi Hardy,

a search on airliners.net regarding UAL shows 3 pics with white letters on brown background (transparent) but no rising runway shown.

Black boxes I only saw on 737 and 777 PFDs so far.

The 744 has no box. This is also to be seen on JAL and CLX pics (LCD).

Hope this helps
Peter

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Peter.

The 744 has no box. This is also to be seen on JAL and CLX pics (LCD).

That's a good thing. I'll change my colors.

Do you have the links to these photos?


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[Peter Lang]

Hi Hardy,

Do you have the links to these photos?

Yes :-)

http://www.airliners.net/photo/United-Airlines/Boeing-747-422/0921999/L/&sid=cb2b72d95fa5a22d0f619316d0da6d8f

http://www.airliners.net/photo/United-Airlines/Boeing-747-422/1051893/L/&sid=cb2b72d95fa5a22d0f619316d0da6d8f

http://www.airliners.net/photo/United-Airlines/Boeing-747-422/0917470/L/&sid=cb2b72d95fa5a22d0f619316d0da6d8f

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cargolux/Boeing-747-4R7F-SCD/0134145/L/&sid=64a3dab7257a9eb63db5df2802146e40

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Cargolux/Boeing-747-4R7F-SCD/1448428/L/&sid=0ae0b18c1034e3704d4073ba153d9ff1

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Japan-Airlines--/Boeing-747-446F-SCD/1539310/L/&sid=324653d9b227e1c74781e4ff2a692e8f

and as far I can see China Airlines also has:

http://www.airliners.net/photo/China-Airlines-Cargo/Boeing-747-409F-SCD/1351905/L/&sid=d0bf387aef0669e2dae3984e8f43924a

Hope this helps
Peter

[Holger Wende]

Hi Peter,

Nice shots :-)

Under which circumstances is the rising runway displayed at all?

I read here, that the rising runway symbol is removed from view when no glideslope is tuned.
Don't know, whether this is applicable generally or only for particular systems.

Regards, Holger

[Peter Lang]

Hi Holger,

Regarding the Rising Runway I'm not sure if the MD-80 has the identical logic as the 744.

Once I heard, that it is displayed below 2,500 feet radio altitude when the localizer pointer is in view with CRTs and below1,000 feet radio altitude with LCDs. So I think this varies from airline to airline, or even within an airline.

Peter

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi,

it makes no sense to couple the Rising Runway with the G/S. That was a typo probably. It's linked to the LOC (x-axis) and RA (y-axis).

It appears below 1000 feet and starts rising at 200 feet and is removed after touchdown*, but may re-appear on the ground.

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* Perhaps it's removed after touchdown only if the FPV is on (the FPV is removed when the RR is below 200ft, the FPV re-appears when the RR disappears.)

[Hardy Heinlin]

1. CRT with RA inside AI
2. CRT with RA above AI
3. LCD with RA inside AI
4. LCD with RA above AI


|-|

[Hardy Heinlin]

I forgot to replace the amber "RADIO 200" by a big "RADIO" (without "200").

[Will]

Are you also modeling the white circle that unwinds?

Another question about the difference between LCD and CRT.  Is one considered objectively better than the other in any particular regard (easier on the eyes, better information architecture, smoother operation, better bright daylight visibility, more reliable, cheaper, etc.), or are the differences only subjective?

Also, what's the history of the LCD/CRT option?  Which came first, and why did Boeing make the switch?  Thanks.

And finally: yeeesh, 4850 fpm descent at 52 AGL?!?   :shock:

Will

[Hardy Heinlin]

Are you also modeling the white circle that unwinds?

You mean this? http://aerowinx.com/assets/pics/psxA36eham.jpg

[Will]

Yep, that's the one.  How about the "wings"-style flight director?

[Hardy Heinlin]

I forgot to replace the amber "RADIO 200" by a big "RADIO" (without "200").

Argh. Just modifed that. Then read that UAL doesn't remove the DH value from the display when amber.

[Hardy Heinlin]

I can't imagine they really keep the DH value. In this critical phase of flight the PFD looks much cleaner if just the word RADIO is displayed (in amber and initially flashing) so that the RA value cannot be confused with the DH value.

(In former EFIS versions "RADIO" was "DH". And only "DH" was displayed in big font during DH alert.)

Knowing the exact preset DH value is of no use when the DH is already passed. The only relevant information is then DECIDE NOW.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Perhaps the DH value is kept only if the RA is inside the AI. In that layout the RA value is far away from the DH value.

But if the DH value is right on top of the RA value during DH alert (both amber), it's not ergonomic. It's OK when the DH is green and the RA white, but not if both are amber.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Perhaps the DH value is kept only if the RA is inside the AI.

No, the value remains displayed and RADIO won't get big in all versions, the above screenshots are correct and my last modification was completely in vain :-)

|-|

[Peter Lang]

Hi Hardy,

one question regarding the dimension of the attitude indicator.

When I look at your screenshots above I have the feeling that the width of the AI is a little bit to small compared to the hight.
Looking at the picture in http://www.aerowinx.com/html/gallery04.html
it seems the AI is not so tall.

Is this an optical illusion, as the photo (and other photos I compared with) is not taken perpendicular? Just wondering.

Peter

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Peter,

if the AI were a square, it would be cropped at the -20 pitch line.

Those photos are often taken from a higher position to get the yoke out of the picture, hence have a stretched width. When I designed my layout using photos I first removed the distortion from that photos, so that the frame dimensions agreed with the actual numbers. To my surprise, the AI was even less squared than I have thought.

I don't claim that this is an exact copy, but it should be within 99%.

|-|


P.S.: You may rise your head higher so that you see the PSX screenshots from an 18 degree angle. That shortens the height to ca. 98% and makes the view more similar to those square-like photos.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Now you started something, Peter :-)

I have rechecked a few things and there's indeed some room for improvement here, despite the typical photo distortions.

We're talking about 1 or 2 % only, but it's driving me mad now ...


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