ATC in long flights...

[cagarini]

I am sorry if I already asked about this at another thread. I have some memory of it having been mentioned in some thread, but couldn't find it :-/

I used PSX only once for  full long haul flight. In fact, it wasn't really a full flight, in the sense of using RW time, because I used the "Jump to" button many times. My purpose was to test the stability of FSX and VisualPSX.

But if and when I start using PSX as I should, with it's included ATC simulation ( although I find really weird that in flights from Portugal to Spain I am asked to use HF??? ), I would like to try and do it by-the-book, using PFPX to build my OFP, starting from C&D, etc... and eventually getting into talking to the ATC.

But, if it's a long haul, and I have to leave the computer to go shopping, babysitting, to sleep, or to leave for work, and get back with it flying safe and sound, I would really like either an option for automatic interaction with ATC to take place, either by the PNF, or even the PF and the PNF.

This could be an option, and a window would show the last interaction with ATC, so that when we return to the cockpit we can pause the simulation and try to find ourselves around..., or done by an external program.

Anyone considering such an "add-on".

And, bringing the subject of the HF again, why is it so common in PSX flights, everywhere around the World?  I had the ATC instructing me to tune my HF radios at least twice during an LPPT - LEMD flight ?

[Hardy Heinlin]

The center frequencies are autofilled by a random generator. You are not forced to use them: Every frequency on the Voice-ATC page is displayed in an edit field and can be changed to whatever you like. See page 48, 5th paragraph.

You can also fill every edit field with the same frequency so that there will be no frequency change.

The non-center frequencies are autofilled with the first published frequency of a category if there are multiple frequencies in a category (e.g. multiple approach, tower, ground frequencies). They too can be changed manually.


|-|ardy

[Mandjare]

Hello together,

also that this thread is an older one, one question is mentioned by JCOMM that I still can not find a proper answer regarding the radios and ATC: has PSX an option that the PNF can handle or tune the active VHF / HF radio by himself when activated & as instructed by ATC? As this was one of the very good options of PS1.3.

I read already that in the Instructor screen the active frequency could be written free by the user, but such an option was great if the flight was in a "real world one man" - environment &  simulating a multicrew cockpit with my "PNF computer buddy".

With PS1. 3 and at very long flights this was a useful option,  especially if the PNF became the PF for some flight segments...

Thanks in advance and greetings from EDQM,

Andre

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hello Andre,

in PSX, the PF is the one that communicates with ATC (like in real life), therefore it's also the PF that swaps the ACT/STBY frequencies when ATC instructs a frequency change. The PNF does not tune standby frequencies. What the PNF can do (when "silent tasks" are enabled) is to set the SPD, HDG, ALT bugs according to ATC instructions when the autopilot is disengaged, i.e. when the PF is flying manually.

Another difference to PS1: In PSX the PF needs to confirm every ATC instruction.


|-|ardy


In PS1 and PSX, the sim user is always the PF even when the PNF is sitting on the left seat. The virtual copilot may only be the PF during the take-off (if you like), but at 400 feet RA the sim user is the PF again.

[Mandjare]

Hello Hardy,
thanks a lot for your reply and clarification regarding PSX. So if I understand correct that's a difference to PS1.3.
I have re-read the PS1.3 manual today, at page 24 (in the last sentence) under point "First Officer"there was mentioned :

"can handle... as well as the com radio and the MCP according to ATC instructions". That included a frequency change as well, if one was instructed.

I think most user (at least me :-) used this functionality when swapping the PF / PNF role between the virtual FO and the sim user when on long haul flights and the user-PF was for a short break or on the galley flirting with the Stewardess :-)

So we have no possibility to have this option back maybe?

Beste Grüsse,
André

[Hardy Heinlin]

One reason I won't add this option is the complexity of PSX, with its three ACPs and their individual settings and the crew's normal workflow during a flight. In the old PS1 there was just one simplified "FS4 style" COM mini panel.

Re: Leaving the deck on long haul flights: I see no advantage in letting PSX simulate a human pilot (or anything) while the PSX user isn't watching PSX. It's like choosing a film in a cinema and then leaving the cinema building. Why should I care about something I won't watch anyway? :-) You can turn off ATC when you leave PSX. The PNF can do step climbs.

[Mandjare]

Ok, explained very well and understood.
PSX is absolutely phenomenal, I'm so happy with my purchase.

Best wishes,
André

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

(in the real plane) during autoflight, the PF certainly does the radio. But on manual, do they?

Hoppie

[Bluestar]

(in the real plane) during autoflight, the PF certainly does the radio. But on manual, do they?

Hoppie

In another life time the PNF handled the radios and the position reports.  We were real sophisticated.  I used a kitchen timer to remind me when I needed to make a position report.  🤣

Yea, I know I'm old and a gringo.  😎

Bode

[double-alpha]

According to the 787 FCOM:

The general PF phase of flight responsibilities are:
• Taxiing
• Flight path and airspeed control
• Airplane configuration
• Navigation

The general PM phase of flight responsibilities are:
• Checklist reading
• Communications
• Tasks asked for by the PF
• Monitoring taxiing, flight path, airspeed, airplane configuration, and
navigation

By the way, Pilot Non Flying is called now Pilot Monitoring

[Mandjare]

Gentlemen, that's the responsibilities as I know them too. But didn't want to discuss this in general. For this an option that the PNF could handle frequency changes would be very practical, if needed and to share workload. Maybe only at Com 1 panel. But of course I accept Hardy's opinion that this is maybe to complicated, as the simulated systems are much much more in-depth...

André 

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

... can always write an add-on to do this ...

[Hardy Heinlin]

When all airlines in the world have renamed the term "PNF" to "PM", I'll change the term in PSX too :-)

The general PM phase of flight responsibilities are:
• Checklist reading
• Communications
• Tasks asked for by the PF
• Monitoring taxiing, flight path, airspeed, airplane configuration, and
navigation

How is "Communications" defined in this text? The PM talks with ATC? Or the PM just sets the frequencies?


A general note about the simulator principle:

The PNF-simulation obviously is unable to read the PSX user's mind. So each wish in the user's brain needs to be transfered to the sim by special keyboard actions or joystick button actions. For example, when you press the G key twice after take-off, you actually need to imagine that it's not you who's setting the gear lever up; it's the PNF-simulation that's moving the lever. Imagination is required. The G key command is not a mechanical lever action but it's a command from you to the PNF-simulation. When you press G, you need to imagine you say "Gear up" to the PNF -- in your mind, not necessarily aloud.

Similarly, when you press the V key, you need to imagine you say "Checked" or whatever to the PNF. The PNF will not read any checklist item until you transfer your brain content to the sim by a keypress. The same imagination is needed for some other keys, the N key, for example, which asks the PNF to set the baro on all three altimeters.

In other words, there's always some imagination required as to which person on the flight deck is actually doing which task; that is, which keypress is actually a direct action -- or rather an indirect command to the PNF that will then perform that action.

What happens when the PNF-simulation does the entire ATC stuff on its own?

"Say again" will not be allowed anymore. So when ATC instructs you to change the frequencies and you didn't understand, you cannot make a "Say again" call anymore as your PNF will have changed the frequencies before you can react. To avoid this, you need a keypress to express your brain content. The key is already there: The Q key. Imagine you don't push the ACT/STBY swap switch yourself; instead, imagine you just allow the PNF to push that ACT/STBY swap switch on the RCP.

When the PNF sets the frequencies and talks with ATC, we can assume the PNF will perfectly understand every ATC instruction. And who will set the MCP? The PNF or you? If the PNF sets the MCP even in this case, I could make an option for a PNF that has the total control. Not partial control. That would be way too confusing.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[double-alpha]

"Communications" is not defined...
Maybe it is company-specific, but during my previous Airbus and Boeing type trainings, the PM set the frequencies and talked with ATC.

With this picture (FCOM 747-400 NP.11) I understand that Radio Tuning Panel is the PM responsability.





And who will set the MCP? The PNF or you?

AFDS Guidelines
Manual Flight
The PM should make AFDS mode selections at the request of the PF. Heading and
altitude changes from air traffic clearances and speed selections associated with
flap position changes may be made without specific directions. However, these
selections should be announced, such as, "HEADING 170 SET". The PF must be
aware such changes are being made. This enhances overall safety by requiring that
both pilots are aware of all selections, while still allowing one pilot to concentrate
on flight path control.

Automatic Flight
When the autopilot is in use, the PF makes AFDS mode selections. The PM
may select new altitudes, but must ensure the PF is aware of any changes.
Both pilots must monitor AFDS mode annunciations and the current FMC
flight plan.

[IefCooreman]

In real life, both pilots are supposed to strictly adhere to areas of responsability. So for communications, PM will set frequencies and talk to ATC. The audio panel is each own's responsability because as a PF you are allowed to change volumes etc, but the comms panel is purely PM.

In manual flight, PM will set MCP in accordance to PF requests and PF will then confirm because he needs to keep his hands on yoke and throttles. With AP enganged, PF will set the MCP.

For the FMC manipulation, this is always PM, with "exec" lights to be confirmed by the PF before pushing. In our company, we even teach transfers of controls if the PF would like to prepare the approach in the FMC and do the briefing. The PM will take over PF responsabilities while the PF becomes PM to setup the FMC and perform the approach briefing. Once the briefing is done, controls are handed back to the PF doing the landing. In other words, whoever is PF is not allowed to touch the FMC at all, he needs to monitor the "flying".

So the theory is fairly simple: PF job is pure flying and nothing else. And if he wants to do something else, he needs to transfer controls.

[Hardy Heinlin]

PF not talking with ATC -- is this now a common rule in all airlines worldwide? I guess I'm too old :-) In the 1990s I often saw the captain flying and talking with ATC, even in European airlines. So, nowadays, when the PF wants to ask ATC a question, does the PF first ask the PM, and the PM then asks ATC? Or in an emergency, when the PM needs to react quickly during a dialog with ATC, e.g. just with simple call like "Unable" etc., will the PF not just push their PTT and say it directly to ATC?

Well, are there any opinions on my previous post regarding a PM simulation that has the total control on the COM settings and confirmations? (No PTT press anymore, no "Say again" etc.)


|-|ardy

[Bluestar]

PF not talking with ATC -- is this now a common rule in all airlines worldwide? I guess I'm too old :-) In the 1990s I often saw the captain flying and talking with ATC, even in European airlines. So, nowadays, when the PF wants to ask ATC a question, does the PF first ask the PM, and the PM then asks ATC? Or in an emergency, when the PM needs to react quickly during a dialog with ATC, e.g. just with simple call like "Unable" etc., will the PF not just push their PTT and say it directly to ATC?

Well, are there any opinions on my previous post regarding a PM simulation that has the total control on the COM settings and confirmations? (No PTT press anymore, no "Say again" etc.)


|-|ardy

The PM has always handled the radios to include frequencies and talking to ATC and I go back to the late 1960's.   It was this way when I was in the military and during my commercial career. 

[Will]

I'll second that. I retired in 2000, and at that time the pilot flying did just the flying (yoke, throttles, trim) while the non-flying pilot (as we called them back then) was responsible for communications.

PF: "Let's see if we can get higher."
PNF (on radio): "Memphis, do you have any higher for Waterski 921?"

[double-alpha]

PF not talking with ATC -- is this now a common rule in all airlines worldwide?

Yes

So, nowadays, when the PF wants to ask ATC a question, does the PF first ask the PM, and the PM then asks ATC?

Yes

Or in an emergency, when the PM needs to react quickly during a dialog with ATC, e.g. just with simple call like "Unable" etc., will the PF not just push their PTT and say it directly to ATC?

In my opinion, in an emergency, ATC is not the priority.
Anyway, the PM has time to confirm a simple "Unable" with the PF before answering ATC.

It is the theory (PF flies and PM communicates), but a pilot must adapt to the situation, even if it means not following the doctrine exactly if it is not appropriate, therefore the PF can say a message to ATC if he needs.
Anyway, It is good practice for the PF to take over ATC communications while the PM deals with a protracted checklist (e.g: Smoke, Fire or Fumes C/L).

By the way, Boeing philosophy is not very clear on the tasksharing rules (compared to Airbus) during a non normal situation:

AIRBUS OPERATIONAL PHILOSOPHY:
GENERAL
It is the responsibility of the PF to:
‐ FLY
‐ NAVIGATE.
It is the responsibility of the PM to:
‐ MONITOR the flight path, the navigation and the aircraft systems
‐ COMMUNICATE.
However, when necessary, the flight crew may re-allocate the tasks, as required.

ABNORMAL OPERATIONS
It is the responsibility of the PF to:
‐ FLY,
‐ NAVIGATE
‐ COMMUNICATE after the initiation of The ECAM actions

[Hardy Heinlin]

OK, thanks.

So do you guys want automatic frequency settings in PSX?