Attempted use of explosives onboard NW 253

[Phil Bunch]

A news report is here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6968218.ece?print=yes&randnum=1261793141959

Sounds like we were  lucky that the explosives attached to the fellow's leg burned rather than detonated, as best I can interpret the news story.  I wonder if his making a connection in Amsterdam is related to the case.  I'm sure the investigators will explore this and many other issues.  The use of a two-part explosive sounds pretty sophisticated.  

Chemical "sniffers" that passengers must pass through in some major US airports have been in use for some time.   My understanding is that they work by spraying puffs of air onto each passenger and then using high-tech sensors to detect explosives, etc, from the passenger.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Ad burning: allegedly he added a liquid from a syringe to powder. Unless you use more equipment than this, I think the mixing process goes too gradually to instantly explode the mixture (apparently he did not use fire).

Ad Schiphol: allegedly he came from Lagos on a KLM flight, and transfered at Schiphol to Detroit. To my surprise this meant he did not need to go through security again. Which means Lagos was the final check. Hm.

edit: Negative: there was a secondary security check just before boarding, Schiphol claims. Now they need to find out how the guy got through.

Ad sniffers: no use if the guy did not pass through security in the first place.


Jeroen

[Jeroen D]

My kids travelled on this very same flight a few days earlier when they came to see us in Kansas City. Brings it awfully close.

Jeroen

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Yay.

[Phil Bunch]

Looks like the Wall Street Journal is blaming it on the Brits (!).  I thought they were blaming Obama for EVERYTHING (grins).

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB126183916146505821.html?mod=article-outset-box#printMode

Excerpt:

Some foreign political and intelligence officials have long complained that the U.K. let itself become a base for terrorist cells, and some recent attacks or attempted attacks on Western targets have had a British connection.
--------------------------
On a somewhat related note, a few years ago I briefly used a doctor-prescribed "TENS" electronic nerve stimulation unit to treat persistent back pain - it's a small electronics box with 4 wires that end in conductive skin patches applied to the skin near the painful area.  Electrical stimulation at selectable frequencies block pain-signaling nerves.

I found out the hard way that it does not go over well to attempt to board an airliner with wires stuck to your body, controlled by a battery-powered 8cm x 5cm box with all sorts of knobs and switches on it.    I had forgotten about it until the metal detector picked the stuff up.  The people running the screening equipment didn't know anything about such medical equipment.  Mercifully, I was (eventually) able to talk to a supervisor who knew about TENS units.  Needless to say, I packed the thing on the return flight!

[Will]

The New York Times is reporting that there will be new restrictions on passengers based on yesterday's incident: "During the final hour of flight, customers will have to remain seated, will not be allowed access to carry-on baggage and cannot have personal belongings or other items on their laps."  My question: why just in the last hour?  Because that's when this attempted terrorist tried to detonate his stuff?  Do we wait until a terrorist tries the same trick on departure, and then ban moving about in the first hour?  Any idea what's going on here?

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I also wonder how they are going to enforce this. I see lots of people walking around (toilet!!!) and rummaging in the overhead lockers during descent the five minutes after FASTEN SEATBELTS has been switched on.

Terrorism works. We are made to think about it every single flight we make, and it gets worse every time.

Last week I got another hour on the flight deck. No single problem. Gave my jump seat away to another (first time) visitor for landing. Got pancakes from the cabin crew. Had a good laugh. Felt like back at World Flight. Hope it was not for the really last time.


Jeroen

[Avi]

The New York Times is reporting that there will be new restrictions on passengers based on yesterday's incident: "During the final hour of flight, customers will have to remain seated, will not be allowed access to carry-on baggage and cannot have personal belongings or other items on their laps."  My question: why just in the last hour?  Because that's when this attempted terrorist tried to detonate his stuff?  Do we wait until a terrorist tries the same trick on departure, and then ban moving about in the first hour?  Any idea what's going on here?

The next step will be to put everybody into a sleep for the flight (as it was in The Fifth Element movie).

[Zinger]

I also wonder how they are going to enforce this. I see lots of people walking around (toilet!!!) and rummaging in the overhead lockers during descent the five minutes after FASTEN SEATBELTS has been switched on.

Online cabin video remotely scanned by AI system.

Except for this new guideline, the "Fasten Seatbelt" sign turned on during initial descent, 20-30 minutes prior to touchdown, is unjustified by flight safety, and a contributor to its violation. It should be turned on 5 minutes before touchdown or when turbulence is expected.

Terrorism works. We are made to think about it every single flight we make, and it gets worse every time.
 

It is the result of our complacency, to the point of self-victimization. We have the intelligence, and the technology to minimize terror to irrelevenatly-small level, but we instead keep dreaming. Only we can help ourselves. If we don't, in not so far future Eurabia terror will convert into inter-sect strife. In one Eurabia state ~25% of the population already comprises "guests".

[Holger Wende]

Except for this new guideline, the "Fasten Seatbelt" sign turned on during initial descent, 20-30 minutes prior to touchdown, is unjustified by flight safety, and a contributor to its violation. It should be turned on 5 minutes before touchdown or when turbulence is expected.

Hi Opher,
I guess the "fasten seatbelt" discussion is twofold, as so many other topics  :?

It is the discussion of (personal) freedom versus safety, isn't it?

I sometimes wonder why the fasten seatbelt signs are not continuously turned on (just like the non-smoking signs).
Each time passengers are injured during unpredictable turbulences such as CAT the same discussion about "always fasten seatbelt while seated" comes up again.
I agree that too a strict "fasten seatbelt" regulation will encourage passengers to violate that rule, unfortunately.  

But I am always concerned when travelling to some specific southern county, that many passengers get out of their seats and start rummaging in the overhead lockers as soon as the aircraft has left the runway, just to be the first to get off the plane.  Only a small number of the passengers remain seated and seem to observe the safety rules.

But up to now I have no idea how to solve this comfortably.
Maybe the overhead lockers should remain really locked while "fasten seatbelt" is on. :mrgreen: And the cabin crew needs a central switch to lock/unlock all passenger seatbelts... :twisted:

Regards, Holger

[Will]

I'm still stuck on the apparent stupidity of the rule that you don't get up "in the last hour of the flight."  Doesn't this just tell terrorists to act in the beginning of the flight?  Is there any sense to this that you can see?

[Shiv Mathur]

Right, Will.

Maybe they are thinking of people who want to rain destruction upon a particular city/country.  Then they would want to destroy the aircraft over that particular place ... and I imagine the easiest way to ensure that is to take a flight to that destination.  
That might explain this strange rule.

Shiv

[Shiv Mathur]

... many passengers get out of their seats and start rummaging in the overhead lockers as soon as the aircraft has left the runway, just to be the first to get off the plane...

I'm ashamed to say this is particularly endemic amongst Indian passengers,
just at touchdown.
They don't seem to realise that in case of emergency braking, they'll shoot out
through the nose of the aircraft.

Shiv

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I just read that in the two hours after the attempted attack, "radio contact was established with all 120 aircraft airborne overhead the USA to establish that there was no further threat."

!?

[Zinger]

Based on experience, a typical attack pattern may involve more than one attempt.

I just read that in the two hours after the attempted attack, "radio contact was established with all 120 aircraft airborne overhead the USA to establish that there was no further threat."

!?

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Yes, but calling planes hardly assures there are no threats, does it? Who recognised this guy before he set his pants on fire?

[Zinger]

It is recommended and read over the public address system, that passengers fasten belts whenever possible to preclude the event you mentioned. I was referring to the mandatory requirement to be strapped in for landing.
CAT is predictable. Additionally, you hear over ATC radio about weather problems in real time.
I've flown helicopteres with up to 56 passenger seats for many thousands of hours and similar as passenger on commercial transports. I encountered one severe unexpected event, I wrote about it here previously, it was in a B744 (HKG to Narita). Many including I were strapped in, the stewardesses serving dinner flew with the food carts to the cabin ceiling. One event, YMMV.

I don't want to get into my thoughts about the justification and legitimacy of mandatory no smoking. How about a prohibition to consume alcohol onboard, that would extend the lives of many kidneys  :shock:
It is the duty of the cabin crew to enforce safety instructions. If a few passengers were detained for questioning or fined heavily, that would deter from breaking safety rules.

Except for this new guideline, the "Fasten Seatbelt" sign turned on during initial descent, 20-30 minutes prior to touchdown, is unjustified by flight safety, and a contributor to its violation. It should be turned on 5 minutes before touchdown or when turbulence is expected.

Hi Opher,
I guess the "fasten seatbelt" discussion is twofold, as so many other topics  :?

It is the discussion of (personal) freedom versus safety, isn't it?

I sometimes wonder why the fasten seatbelt signs are not continuously turned on (just like the non-smoking signs).
Each time passengers are injured during unpredictable turbulences such as CAT the same discussion about "always fasten seatbelt while seated" comes up again.
I agree that too a strict "fasten seatbelt" regulation will encourage passengers to violate that rule, unfortunately.  

But I am always concerned when travelling to some specific southern county, that many passengers get out of their seats and start rummaging in the overhead lockers as soon as the aircraft has left the runway, just to be the first to get off the plane.  Only a small number of the passengers remain seated and seem to observe the safety rules.

But up to now I have no idea how to solve this comfortably.
Maybe the overhead lockers should remain really locked while "fasten seatbelt" is on. :mrgreen: And the cabin crew needs a central switch to lock/unlock all passenger seatbelts... :twisted:

Regards, Holger

[martin]

!?

"Airborne 123, Boondocks Center, interrogative, your status ok?"
"Affirmative, Airborne 123."
"Roger that, continue as filed".
 . . .
All pending threats safely cleared.

 :mrgreen:

[Will]

Martin, that's exactly correct.

Jeroen, were there really only 120 aircraft airborne at that time?  That seems low, by an order of magnitude.

[Qavion]

I'm still stuck on the apparent stupidity of the rule that you don't get up "in the last hour of the flight."  Doesn't this just tell terrorists to act in the beginning of the flight?  Is there any sense to this that you can see?

I'm with you on this one, Will. What's to stop a terrorist accessing his locker an hour and 5 minutes before landing, concealing the "detonator" up his sleeve or elsewhere for the required time?