KJFK CANARSIE 13L visual

[Zapp]

Just did this visual approach after a KBOS-KJFK short hop tnx to X-View. It was really rewarding, and I can say I put her down all in one piece. That final approach with houses, roads and cars moving around is really something. And the bird behaved beautifully!

Just one question: what's the right way of programming the Canarsie (aka Parkway) approach with the FMC?

map can be found here: http://flightaware.com/resources/airport/KJFK/IAP/all/pdf

video here (small bird tho) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWfXMxyKmTw

Tnx

Andrea

[torrence]

Hi Zapp

I'm not a real life pilot, but I suspect this visual approach is usually flown pretty much with eyes out the window since all the major markers are prominent landmarks on the map.  If you want some FMC input for situational awareness I think this falls under Bulfer's 'techniques'.  What I would do is tune CRI on the NAV/RAD page with a course of 223 inbound, then put CRI in the FIX page with a BRG of 041 for your course outbound and add CRI on the LEGS page.  Then select DEP/ARR and go to the last pages, select 13L under runways and VFR APPR.  This will give you an 8 nm runway extension and put a FA13L fix on it.  If you then fly to CRI and follow the 041 radial from CRI at 1500 ' as noted in the Parkway plate, the runway extension will give you a visual cue on where to turn to intercept the runway approach heading and should coincide with the landmarks on the plate depending on the scenery you're using.

Cheers,
Torrence

[jtsjc1]

There are lead in strobe lights along the parkway for guidance to the runway. A pilot who helped develop the Level D 767 used to fly the approach and he said he would stay slightly outside the strobes (to the left) before making the turn to final. Its a very tight turn to 13L/R so he'd make a little wider turn than called for. There was a payware scenery for FSX that had the strobes modeled. I've seen this approach flown many times from the Belt Parkway which is the road referred to on the plate.

[Zapp]

Yup I remember that fs9 scenery... Too bad the lights are not there in X-Plane, so i had to follow the road.

About my second question: what's the best way to program this approach in the 747 fmc?

Tnx

Andrea

[frumpy]

Canarsie 13L in X-plane? There is a reallife 737-pilot talking one through it, however without using the FMS:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wGfXSniuH8

[Britjet]

The usual approach that will be given at Kennedy on 13 is the VOR13L approach. It is rarely to do with wind direction for landing but usually to do with aircraft flow direction. It is common in the evening..
There is an ILS on 13L but it isn't used for straight-in approaches very often as it gets too close to Teterborough and La Guardia.
Basically the 13L VOR approach is as laid down in published plates, with the caveat that there is a "bad weather" procedure and a "good weather" procedure. The vertical profile is lower when the cloudbase is lower, and ATC will clear the aircraft accordingly.
The VOR approach has a decision point rather than a decision altitude. At DHYML you have to be able to see the lead-in lights, and follow them round to the runway, or if not able you fly the missed approach.
The final visual segment can be interesting! It needs a well-coordinated turn onto the final approach, and a significant increase in ROD as you come"round the corner". Normally the ILS13L is radiating to help with that, though. You could also be given 13R at the last minute which is even more interesting!
The trick is to keep the speed as low as you can using Flap 30, use the landmarks in the visual chart to help the turn, watch for the inevitable change in wind as you come round, and keep a very close eye on your vertical path - simples!
Many airlines now fly this with a "visual overlay" usung LNAV and VNAV, with specially-constructed points around the final turn to make a smooth transition. The autopilot flies it!
I'm sure there are some JFK "regulars" hereabouts who can help further, but it is certainly an entertaining way to finish the flight...
Good luck!

[mk777]

Asalt (CRI 223/6) N4031.7w07357.8, 300'
CRI 112.30, 1500'
DMYHL (CRI 041/2.6) N4039.0w07352.0, 800'
Missed app, after DMYHL climbing right turn to 4000' via hdg 100deg until R-078 JFK(115.90) to DPK (117.70)
If the VOR 13L isn't in the database then thats all there is to it except to stick a strong southerly in and wish you luck.
I think it is though as there was another thread of people reporting GPWS cautions on the app.
Matt

[Zapp]

Thank'you, gonna try that one tonight!

Andrea

[emerydc8]

We don't have a coded approach for this, so it is purely the old dive-and-drive method, using ALT and V/S. We do use LNAV for the lateral mode.

Start the approach level in ALT outside of ASALT at 3,000' with flaps 10. Gear down prior to ASALT. Have 1,500' set in the MCP and about .5 prior to to ASALT open the V/S window and set in a 1,500 FPM descent. Between ASALT and CRI would be a good place to set flaps 20 and 25. As soon as ALT captures in the FMA at 1,500', set 800' (MDA) in the MCP. At .5 prior to CRI open the V/S window again and set in about a 1200 FPM descent. Flaps 30 between CRI and DMYHL (some guys like to wait for the turn and others like to be fully configured by CRI). As you get close to 1000 AGL, reduce the V/S to 1000 FPM. You will capture 800' prior to DMYHL and be in a level segment for a short time. As soon as ALT captures at 800' in the FMA, set 4000' in the MCP for the missed approach altitude.

Prior to DMYHL, A/T and F/D off, then A/P off. Note the N1 required to maintain level flight at flaps 30. Follow the lead-in lights to 13L from DMYHL.

A good technique is to set a 2 mile ring around DMYHL in the FIX page. Stay at 800' until your nose gets right to the outside edge of the 2 mile ring. That's where you can start down at about 800 FPM and you will see the PAPI from there. If you start down earlier than 2nm you will be low when you finally see the PAPI.

I don't ever remember doing this approach without some sort of wind out of the south. It's usually pretty strong too, so it makes the turn to final that much more interesting. The wind shift due to the hangars and buildings adds to the excitement as you get down into the touchdown zone. I had a friend land a classic on 13L a few weeks ago and he said he got a gust on touchdown that took full right aileron to keep from hitting a pod. He remarked that he was grateful that it wasn't the FO's leg because he probably couldn't have grabbed the yoke fast enough and his F/O would almost certainly not have reacted in time. He would have been invited to the office for tea and biscuits for sure.

I don't use any scenery generator and, to PSX's credit, I kind of like being liberated from all the bugs and problems with FSX crashing and taking forever to load (I haven't tried P3d, so I don't know if it's any better in that regard). Also, if you are flying PSX to help increase your proficiency in the real sim or airplane, I think (IMHO) you are better off without any scenery generator since it makes you pay more attention to your instruments and rely less on the scenery as a crutch. Of course, if you are doing it for other reasons (Peter) then the scenery packages like Fly Tampa JFK II are great.

Having said that, this is the only place I wish I had some sort of scenery generator just for the approach lead-in lights to get turned toward the runway, since I can't see the runway from DMYHL. It's a minor issue and I've been able to work around it by using the ND to judge the turn in. Actually, with this technique, landing on 13R is easier because all you have to do is start an 18 degree bank turn at DMYHL and you will be darn close to the centerline when you roll out.

If there was an add-on just for the lead-in lights to 13L/R, I'd definitely be interested in trying it.

[G-CIVA]

I don't use any scenery generator and, to PSX's credit, I kind of like being liberated from all the bugs and problems with FSX crashing and taking forever to load (I haven't tried P3d, so I don't know if it's any better in that regard)....

If there was an add-on just for the lead-in lights to 13L/R, I'd definitely be interested in trying it.

This is where p3D comes into its own as a 'scenery generator' if you are able to dedicate a single computer to this task ... silky smooth frames with no stutters ....

I have Orbx's FTX Global Base & Vector then scenery wise above that Drzewiecki Designs New York City X, KEWR, KLGA & KTEB

I have stuck with the FSDreamTeam rendition of KJFK for now ..... the 'lead in' lighting sections at Old Mill Creek, Lefferts Blvrd & on the hotel roof are faith fully reproduced plus the other visual cues such as Aqueduct Racetrack, the Airport itself including all of the associated lighting is of course excellent.

With all of the above installed all of the visual cues are there & the experience has become all the more immersive & I have had the experience of the lead in lighting coming into view in the final descent approaching DMHYL ... after that the turn becomes much easier to coordinate with the lights simulating the 'white rabbit' effect ... a great way to end a trip in PSX.

Drzewiecki Designs also do their own version of KJFK although I have not yet tried that out.

Search for afx_kjfk.zip in the AVSIM File library for an AFCAD depicting the 13L/R lighting & here-

http://www.freewarescenery.com/fsx/us.html

for some freeware FSX/p3D freeware options for KJFK.

Happy Flighting!

Steve

[emerydc8]

Hi Steve,

Now that you mention it, I do have the FSDreamTeam JFK version 2 that I was using with FSX/PMDG and the lead-in lighting was very good. It sounds like P3d is much better than FSX. I had so many problems with FSX that it was a pleasure to put it in my rear view mirror. Who was it that said with PSX you install it and you are flying in a matter of minutes; but with FSX, you install it and you spend the rest of your time trouble shooting? Such an accurate statement from my experience.

Jon D.

[G-CIVA]

Who was it that said with PSX you install it and you are flying in a matter of minutes; but with FSX, you install it and you spend the rest of your time trouble shooting? Such an accurate statement from my experience.

Very true John, I am sticking with p3Dv2.5 for now - v3 is already in the market place.  I will allow things to stabilise, see what after market products get released to market for p3Dv3 before I make any further switch.

For the moment I am more than happy with what p3Dv2.5 can provide as a scenery generator for PSX.

Steve

[IefCooreman]

Preflight case 1: "hmm, probably canarsie... Done it before? You want to fly this leg?"
Me: "Euh, yeah sure...!"
Approaching CCC VOR: "Expect ILS 31R
Me: "New York, I hate you"

Preflight case 2: "hmm, probably canarsie... Done it before? You want to fly this leg?"
Me: "Euh, no, winds always change when I fly..."
Approaching CCC VOR: "Expect VOR 13L"
Me: "New York, I hate you"

Anyways, interesting to read the different techniques for the descent. For me the main issues are: it's really a very gradual continuous descent with a VERY gradual turn around the highway. It's easier if you keep the lead-in lights under your right wing, compared to under the fuselage (if that makes any sense to you). So despite the fact that it's a completely visual turn to final, it's not the hardest turn to fly. And as Britjet mentioned, the slower you fly, the more "straight" and easier the long turn becomes to fly.

Once completely visual, many people stop the descent, only to dive down once they are inbound to the hotel because they realize they are too high. Add to that that once Lefferts boulevard lights (close to the Aquaduct), many tend to turn as quickly as possible straight to the hotel, which in theory leads to an unstable approach overhead the hotel because overhead the hotel you will not be aligned with the runway.