Lufthansa wingstrike during crosswind landing; Hamburg model railway

[Phil Bunch]

Some interesting videos I found at youtube.  I hope they aren't something we've already shared.

1.  World's largest model railway, in Hamburg, Germany, video produced by the creators of the railway, which also includes airplanes and cars, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN_oDdGmKyA&feature=player_embedded

There is an "HQ" button that enables a higher quality playback mode for those who prefer a higher resolution version.

2.  Wing strike by a Lufthansa airliner during a stressful crosswind landing.  Gives new meaning to the word "crabbing" as applied to landing configuration!  Links to other difficult landings that popped up after the video finished.  I assume these additional links are deterministic and will pop up the same for other viewers but I am not certain of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z42fchrzhHY&NR=1&feature=fvwp


3.  TOP TEN Crosswind and Scary Aircraft Landings

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5X_7Xt2ga-s&NR=1

I suspect many of these movies are exaggerated by optical illusions caused by the angle of viewing and the use of a telephoto lens, etc.  Still, they are pretty amazing to view.  I've decided I only want to land in zero crosswind conditions!

[Holger Wende]

Hi Phil,

Shocking :shock:

I love to fly but I definitely prefer low-crab-angle-landings (in real world and in PS1).
Recently I experienced a real world "rough" landing at Istanbul, many passengers started clapping already before touch down... but applause ceased immediately thereafter.

Some of the x-wind landings seem to be test flights, such as these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljOxo0s33sI

Do aircraft certification requirements define conditions for such x-wind landings in detail?
And does anybody know exactly which conditions are required for B744 tests and how these test conditions relate to the finally certified maximum permitted x-wind landing speeds?

Regards, Holger

[Zinger]

Hello Holger,
referring to US regulations, as far as I know there is neither a stipulation nor recommendation in FARs 25 (transport category aircraft certification), 91, 121, 135 (commercial aircraft operations) about crosswind, except that the applicant (Boeing in the B747-400 case) has to demonstrate that his requested crosswind operating limitations are safely controllable.  Similar with Advisory Circulars, i.e.  AC 120-29A, August 12, 2002, CRITERIA FOR APPROVAL OF CATEGORY I AND CATEGORY II WEATHER MINIMA FOR APPROACH, recommends ways and means only and doesn't deal with crosswind.
http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library%5CrgAdvisoryCircular.nsf/list/AC%20120-29A/$FILE/AC120-29A.pdf

Current El Al B747-458 crosswind limitations are 30 Kt, 25 Kt for autoland.

Do aircraft certification requirements define conditions for such x-wind landings in detail?
And does anybody know exactly which conditions are required for B744 tests and how these test conditions relate to the finally certified maximum permitted x-wind landing speeds?

Regards, Holger

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

1.  World's largest model railway, in Hamburg, Germany, video produced by the creators of the railway, which also includes airplanes and cars, etc.

Now that is a planet simulator.

[Holger Wende]

Hi Opher,

I would be surprised if (x-)wind limits were not specified somewhere in some regulations. The El Al numbes are the same as in the PS1.3 manual, so I assume these values are type specific rather than company specific. Or am I wrong?

Anyway thanks for link to the Circulars.

Regards, Holger

[Zinger]

Hi Holger,
I mentioned the specifications, freely available on the net, you can check them yourself.
Many limitations are type or even manufacturer specific (IIRC all current Boeing variants have identical wind limitations with one minor exception, this is due to manufacturer philosophy and tradition), others are operator specific. Affected by company equipment arrangement and training and proficiency standards. Take for example an operator in which captains fly two or three fleets consequently, they typically prefer to have a single set of wind limitations. Take companies with say six different subtypes of one aircraft type. Those will not only have one set of limitations for all variants, they might have a common set of procedures, checklists, even flight manuals- see the singular form on the last line of the Boeing 737 example, where Classic and NG variants are operated with the same checklist despite vastly different cockpits. Quote:

737
Flight Manual Continental
Sec. Intro Page 1
Rev. 11/15/XX #43
AUTHORIZATION PAGE
This Continental Airlines / Continental Micronesia Flight Manual contains all
the approved Airplane Flight Manual (AFM) operating procedures and
performance data as revised and/or modified, and includes any appropriate data
or information from revisions dated or numbered:
737-300 D6-8730.3T0 REVISION #22 DATED 09/16/02
737-300 D6-8730.3Q81 REVISION #32 DATED 09/16/02
737-500 D6-8735.524 REVISION #12 DATED 02/08/01
737-700 D6-31A001.724 REVISION #13 DATED 08/27/02
737-800 D6-31A001.824 REVISION #18 DATED 07/01/02
737-900 D6-31A001.924 REVISION #08 DATED 03/20/02
This manual meets or exceeds all requirements of the B737 approved Airplane
Flight Manual in accordance with F.A.R. 121.141.

[Zinger]

Just to expand the rationale of captains flying 2-3 fleets consequently:
a. Aircraft fleets require pilots of all age groups for proper and continuous flow of aircrew advancement, like in human society.
b. In our societies, humans aged 30-45 are typically married, have mortgages and a few young children. Many women nowadays prefer to develop a career.
c. Some operators put pilots in certain fleets, move them after a few years, say from B744 to B757, among other things to avoid fracturing pilot family cells due to frequent extended travel. I know El Al pilots who flew Tel Aviv New York "quickies" (11 hours each leg, 36 hours each roundtrip including rest in NYC) 3 times in a one week period, during the summer hi-season. You build a beautiful Villa with 5 car garage and 2 Jacuzzis only to divorce and sell it later.
d. Flying a monthly schedule of one long range round trip and the rest quickies where you wake up to fly early that day and return home the same evening. This is more manageable for family life but requires proper scheduling, and if you are not an All Nippon pilot who flies 50 minute Tokyo-Osaka flights on B747s, flying a few fleets consequently provides that scheduling option.