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Turbulence

Started by Will, Wed, 27 May 2009 02:03

Will

Any chance you could make the instrument panel jostle up and down a bit in response to turbulence?  Watching for changes on the flight instruments was never really sensitive enough...

Wil
Will /Chicago /USA

Matt Sheil

Just shake your screen Will  or tape your mobile phone to your LCD Screen, put it on vibrate and get someone to call you.  :?

Shiv Mathur

Hoppie, will you be writing a PSX-to-mobile-phone broker ?

Hardy Heinlin

#3
No chance, Will. I have tested various panel motion effects last year. It was impressive in the first 30 seconds ... and then I got a headache.

(Although I'm otherwise rollercoaster-proof.)

Aside from that, it decreases the frame rates too much.

The only effect I might implement is for touch-down, in order to give some visual feedback on the impact g-force.

Cheers,

|-|ardy

Will

Touchdown effects, eh?  I remember the howls on the last board when people would transition from MSFS to PS1.3, and they'd complain about the lack of wheel "chirp" when the plane touched down. I never had any problem telling when I was on the ground--maybe because I always had the speed brake armed. However, telling when I was supposed to be in turbulence... that was more difficult. Oh well.

Will
Will /Chicago /USA

Jamie

Most of the time you can tell by looking at the bouncing pitchbar FD and speedtrend going up and down that you encounter turbulence. Apart from the 'feel sensation' of course.
Touchdown I would say increase the volume of the wheels bouncing on the concrete. Followed by complaining flight attendants  :mrgreen:
Jamie
No Kangaroos In Austria!

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Will CronenwettTouchdown effects, eh?  I remember the howls on the last board when people would transition from MSFS to PS1.3, and they'd complain about the lack of wheel "chirp" when the plane touched down.
I meant to say that normal touchdowns remain smooth in PS. A visual jerk effect should, if at all, only occur on very hard touch downs – or when the nose wheel is being lowered too quickly.

|-|

Will

#7
Hardy, will you be constantly calculating acceleration and reporting it to Matt for his motion platform, or will Matt have to calculate it himself based on changes in reported velocities (or position)?  In any event, maybe someone can tap into the acceleration and bounce the screen up and down a little bit... or else Matt can send me a little tiny motion platform that I can set my Mac on--and my chair, too!

Will
Will /Chicago /USA

Matt Sheil

Quote from: Will CronenwettHardy, will you be constantly calculating acceleration and reporting it to Matt for his motion platform, or will Matt have to calculate it himself based on changes in reported velocities (or position)?  In any event, maybe someone can tap into the acceleration and bounce the screen up and down a little bit... or else Matt can send me a little tiny motion platform that I can set my Mac on--and my chair, too!

Will

Hi Will
We get all these from PS13 now, so I guess PSX will provide the same.
Here is a screen grab from Garry's software for the motion feed.
The actual motion computer does all the numbers, we just feed it 5 variables from PS13 and it calculates all the accelerations and Wash outs.
We can also send other variables to it like turbulence, cracks in pavement, flat tyres and so on, this is all done through the BUMP mode and is unlimited.
For example we can send wind gusts on the ground and the sim will shutter or sway a little (wind hits the Big Rudder)
It is only up to our idea's as to what we can implement.
Pod strikes, touchdown of each wheel based on rate of descent.
We even simulate the main gear dragging in a sharp turn above 15kts  :lol:

Phil Bunch

Having tactile low-frequency feedback is important to the realism any audio-visual experience.  We "hear" many things using our skin as a vibration-sensing organ.

I have a 7000 watt, 7-channel, home theater system with a powered subwoofer for each channel.  A well-powered home theater provides an especially enjoyable experience for action/adventure movies.  For example, closing one's eyes and leaving only the sound on provides much more of an immersive experience than stopping the audio and leaving only the video on.  One of the best home theater demo DVDs is "Saving Private Ryan", a World War II movie.  The first 20 minutes of the Normandy Landing section has incredible sound and visuals.  The explosions are felt in one's skin, gut and lungs via the sound system's subwoofers.  Even my reclining chair resonates when a "big one" goes off.  With multiple senses involved in experiencing the movie, it becomes psychologically convincing that "you are there", and only full-motion missing.  

Matt's full-motion sim of course takes the next step and creates a totally immersive experience I'm sure.

See the URL below for a well-known way to enhance the tactile perception of low-frequency sound.  While the name of the company is humorous, the reviews in home theater magazines have been positive.  As best I can follow, transducers are attached to the frame of one's chair or sofa and connected to one's home theater/receiver/sound system.  Then, one not only has sound transmitted through the air but also sound transmitted into one's body through their "buttkicker" system.

Here's a quote:

"Feel Bass Without Volume"

"ButtKicker® brand low frequency audio transducers "shake" your couch, home theater seating, gaming chair, car, or drum throne precisely in sync with your movie, music or game."

http://www.thebuttkicker.com/

I assume some big sim owners have such systems in their cockpits.  Or, at least they should have such a system (grins), unless they have full-motion - full-motion would presumably provide all the tactile sensations one would need.  Even with full-motion capability, perhaps additional tactile sound would supplement and complement the full-motion.  The transducer(s) would presumably be attached to the frame of each pilot's seat.  

Things like a 747-400 touchdown, especially if it's a bit of a hard landing, would be ideal for using this audio-synchronized tactile transducer system.  Missile strikes or an engine explosion would also be well-suited for such transducers (more grins).

Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: Phil BunchI have a 7000 watt, 7-channel, home theater system with a powered subwoofer for each channel.
Wow. Do you live in a residential area? :-)

|-|

Phil Bunch

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin
Quote from: Phil BunchI have a 7000 watt, 7-channel, home theater system with a powered subwoofer for each channel.
Wow. Do you live in a residential area? :-)

|-|

Yes, I do live in a US suburb.  The main problem I have with respect to neighbors is that even with the windows closed, the windows act as passive radiators, so the sound outside the house can actually be louder than sound in a room outside of the room with the home theater system.   Fortunately, the receiver has a "midnight mode" that limits the sound to peak sound levels that are lower than the maximum sound level the system can technically produce.

These days, I live on the ocean front in Maine, with neighbors not very close by.  Only the fish or seagulls might be disturbed.

I once read that a simple test for adequate maximum audio sound level is to see if you can blow out a candle at 1 meter from the subwoofer(s).   I haven't tried the candle test but near the biggest subwoofer ports (speaker diameter 18 inches = 45 cm) some sound passages will make one's pants legs flap around. (grins)  These speakers go down to about 12 Hz, which is almost subaudible but I can "hear" and feel such very low frequency audio test tones through my skin.

I assume that in flight sims, one should be able to recreate the sound of a 744 engine at full power in order to have true realism (grins).  I have a distant memory of reading that a 747 engine's sound is about 180 decibels some distance away and can cause internal organ damage.  It's not enough to only put on ear protectors!  You have to worry about damaging your liver and spleen, etc!    Surely Matt can reach 180 dB in his sim (if not, there's another add-on to provide for WF2009!!)

In the USA, so many things are taken to excess as a way of lie.  ("The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom" - from William Blake's Proverbs of Hell in "The Marriage of Heaven and Hell").  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marriage_of_Heaven_and_Hell

Each year there is an international contest to see who can produce the loudest sustained sound inside an automobile or personal truck.  I think a German team won a recent contest.  They had to use thick, bullet-proof car windows otherwise their system would simply blow out the windows.  A TV documentary I watched showed that they fill an SUV (Sports Utility Vehicle truck) with automobile batteries to provide extremely high instant power to the sound system.  They also use HUGE capacitors to provide even higher peak power.  Their capacitors are measured in units of Farads, whereas most electronic capacitors are in microfarads or picofarads.  

You can buy 1 or 2 Farad capacitors for boosting your personal car audio bass, in many hi-fi shops, for those who want their personal cars to produce very high peak bass.  I assume such systems are for people who drive around in their cars blasting their rap music into surrounding people in order to harass them.  Most towns now have laws limiting the sound level such car audio systems can make outside of the car.  It's hard to imagine how one could drive safely with high sound levels present inside the car.

Below is a web site discussing some of the competitions to producing max sound level inside a vehicle:

http://www.iasca.com/content/Formats/06idbl.aspx

The world records for automobile-generated sound levels are listed here:

http://www.iasca.com/content/Stats/05idbl/alltimeworldrecords.aspx

I see that in one of the Ultimate car audio divisions, someone did produce a sound pressure level above 180 dB.  I believe this would be competitive with the sound level near a spooled up 747 engine - I think Boeing posted such specs somewhere on the net.  This would be into the territory where sound could be used as a weapon, something the US military is now using in some battle situations, using special audio projectors.

As for myself, I simply want to have what is sometimes called "immersive" sound, so that I can easily "suspend disbelief" and feel like I am really there in a movie scene.  Video doesn't do this - it's mostly an audio-created feeling.  Yet the sound level in my system is actually MUCH lower than real battlefield sound levels.  If it were realistic, one would bleed from one's ears and nose after a nearby movie explosion (more grins).  High power levels also help with some types of classical music that I enjoy, especially Bach's organ music.  

Ideally, one would have an acoustically isolated home theater/music room so that one would have a better controlled environment and so that one would not disturb the neighbors or other house residents.  Special inside-the-wall  linings are available to create such an environment but it costs a lot and requires custom-building the room.  If I win the US Powerball lottery, I'll definitely go for such a home theater room!  I tried one out at a hi-fi dealer a few years ago - this high-end audio dealer had constructed a remarkable listening room, circular in shape with moderately spherical shapes for the floor and ceiling, designed by an acoustical engineer to manage reflected sound.  With about 200K US dollars of equipment, unbelievably beautiful sound in all genres was created.  My jaw involuntarily dropped immediately after first hearing the sound from this room + equipment.  I had no idea recorded music could sound so beautiful and so real. Peak volume levels, when needed, were of course remarkable and very clean, unlike the above mentioned car audio contest vehicles where only the quantity of sound is of interest.

--A long reply to a simple comment.  I hope some of its content is interesting or at least entertaining.

Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch

Peter Lang

Huh...  :shock: 180 db? Up to now I thougt this will kill you immediately.

How does your sim handle the vibrations? I suppose its very realistic. When you pull the reversers the dishes in the kitchen will fall from the cupboard  ;)

Peter

Phil Bunch

Quote from: Peter LangHuh...  :shock: 180 db? Up to now I thougt this will kill you immediately.

How does your sim handle the vibrations? I suppose its very realistic. When you pull the reversers the dishes in the kitchen will fall from the cupboard  ;)

Peter

I may have accidentally created some confusion here, by mixing poorly expressed humor with bits of technically accurate reality.  In reading my post, I can now see that it might not be clear when I was trying to be entertaining and when I was communicating accurate but amazing facts.

180 dB sound is powerful enough to cause personal injuries, by my limited understanding.  People in the car audio maximum sound competitions create this sound level inside their special cars but there are no people in the cars during the competition.

I do not use any sort of hi-fi audio system for my very modest desktop PC-based PS1 744 sim - I do not own a full-size cockpit or full-motion sim like Matt's or John's.  

I do own a 7000 watt home theater system with multiple subwoofers, but it's only used for movies and music.  

With PSX coming out, perhaps there will be a role for surround sound and flight sims at my home, especially if someone would write some good multi-channel high-fidelity audio add-ons for PSX.  My desktop PC has an SPDIF output for multi-channel sound, and I've recently cabled it into the home theater receiver.  I don't know what sound packages are available via MS FS or FSX that might work with PSX.  Jeroen has previously provided a PS1 air crew sounds package.  I can't think of a technically accurate reason to have high-volume sounds in PSX, though since extremely loud sounds are normally only heard outside the aircraft.  

Perhaps the sound of an engine exploding or a crash landing would qualify as very high sound level events?  That way, if one crashes one's PSX 744, one should hear some sort of massive explosion, the sounds of metal ripping, and perhaps some passenger screams I would guess.  In PS1 having the screen turn red after you crash the sim is quite dramatic and makes the point visually.

I hope this clarification helps.  I apologize for any confusion I may have created.

Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch