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EFIS aesthetics

Started by Hardy Heinlin, Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:53

Will

It's true that red is the color of celebration in China. I was in China last year for the Spring Festival (Chinese New Year) and red was everywhere. Even before the Communist party took over the country, red was the color of happiness, celebration, and good fortune.
Will /Chicago /USA

Hardy Heinlin

#21
On my avatar I'm wearing red trousers.

frumpy

Quote from: Hardy HeinlinYou can also apply a circle with no open end: red ... yellow ... green ... cyan ... blue ... magenta ... red ...

I.e. from red via magenta to blue.

Hmm... you can, but long wavelengths don't connect to shorter ones.
The eye detects a small spectrum of  electromagnetical waves,
a circle would mean we see all there is. Red is quite rare, so it pops out.

martin

Links about   those   receptors...
(Last one also explains why Black Is Black only for men.)

Martin

Hardy Heinlin

QuoteHmm... you can, but long wavelengths don't connect to shorter ones.
The eye detects a small spectrum of electromagnetical waves,
a circle would mean we see all there is. Red is quite rare, so it pops out.
I electromagnetically agree, phenomenologically disagree. I was trying to say that for the mind the red color has, like all colors, not one but two neighbours, so that color shifting (hue) is possible in two directions gradually without interruptions. Magenta can be generated by mixing red and blue, although there is a huge break in the wavelength when going from red to blue.

I think this is one of those big riddles in the world of the human mind.

In my opinion, for the mind, colors are not a quantity but a quality. There are no wavelength numbers in the mind when experiencing a color -- or music. An acoustic tone, too, is a similarly strange phenomenon that follows a circular principle while the wavelength is decreasing or increasing in one direction only.


Cheers,

rdy|-|a

frumpy

#25
Quote from: Hardy HeinlinI electromagnetically agree, phenomenologically disagree. I was trying to say that for the mind the red color has, like all colors, not one but two neighbours, so that color shifting (hue) is possible in two directions gradually without interruptions. Magenta can be generated by mixing red and blue, although there is a huge break in the wavelength when going from red to blue.

I think this is one of those big riddles in the world of the human mind.

In my opinion, for the mind, colors are not a quantity but a quality. There are no wavelength numbers in the mind when experiencing a color -- or music. An acoustic tone, too, is a similarly strange phenomenon that follows a circular principle while the wavelength is decreasing or increasing in one direction only.


We have the outer, physical world which (for seeing) expresses itself
with electromagnetical waves. Picking up those waves forms our
mind (in a process we don't know). I the outer world, colors do not
exist.
The human eye can detect waves in the THz range, a bat can
"see" in kHz range. So the bat has an entirely different state of
mind or feeling of reality.
The red apple didn't care, it just did a chemical reaction in the sun
and appeared to some species red, so it got distributed.
"Red" itself just means that all other frequencies (390-620 nm)
are absorbed. So the one side is absorbed, while the other side
is not receptable.

I am not completly sure, but I think mixing of colors is also a
physical process, the superposition principle. Absorbing one side
of the colors means recepting the other frequencies and get
a mixed frequency- which is the color we see. Should be the
same with sound vs. tone, right?

After all, I think my main point is that red color is just rare
in the world, so it pops out. Some animals were able to percept
"red" better than others, while this was an evolutionary advantage
for the apple and the animal. So this was the kettle
finding its lid  :D

Hardy Heinlin

QuoteShould be the same with sound vs. tone, right?
Strangely, not quite. Mixing two acoustic sine waves can always be heard as two different tones in the human mind (and may produce even more tones by differential effects), while mixing the waves of two colors always generates exactly one color in the human mind.

I agree with all you wrote except that I wouldn't say that the "outer, physical world" expresses itself with electromagnetical waves. Physics are men made math models, I would say. If you continue on this subject, I'll start with Popper :-)


Cheers,

|-|ardy

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Duality of light   :mrgreen:

Will

Quote from: Jeroen HoppenbrouwersDuality of light   :mrgreen:

That's funny.

Frumpy may have a point with red being used for signaling just because it's rare. I'm looking outside my office window now and the colors I see are predominantly "earth tones" even though I can see buildings, too.  Every red that isn't used for signaling looks something like THIS or maybe THIS or THIS. The only reds I can see like THIS are brake lights from cars, and they really do stick out.
Will /Chicago /USA

frumpy

Quote from: Hardy HeinlinStrangely, not quite. Mixing two acoustic sine waves can always be heard as two different tones in the human mind (and may produce even more tones by differential effects), while mixing the waves of two colors always generates exactly one color in the human mind.
I have to correct my idea on the superposition. Basically the receptors in the
eye can see RGB. The strength of activation is analog, lets say 0-100%.
So a color is represented in our brain by certain activation patterns
given by the receptors. Same with taste, while the tounge can distinguish
5 (or 6) different qualities, the mix of receptor activation says "hmm...! chocolate!"
or "yuck!! an apple!".

Quote from: |-|I agree with all you wrote except that I wouldn't say that the "outer, physical world" expresses itself with electromagnetical waves. Physics are men made math models, I would say. If you continue on this subject, I'll start with Popper :-)

Whats wrong about the electromagnetical waves? The outer world does
not only consist of that, of course. But light is an electromagnetical
wave. Temperature radiation is an electromagnetical wave. Gravitation is
not. It may be a man made physical model, but basically you can count the electrons, weigh them, check their position or their speed. I only meant
that our perception of color is just the result of picking up electromagnetical
waves. Does Popper say anything different?

John Golin

In all things, context is important.

When I look at strawberries, the plump, red ones are attractive and have a positive association. A red annunciation in the cockpit is a totally different story!

 :)
John Golin.
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from: frumpyI only meant that our perception of color is just the result of picking up electromagnetical waves. Does Popper say anything different?
I just thought of Popper's three worlds in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popper%27s_three_worlds


|-|-|

Hardy Heinlin

#32
P.S.: Perhaps I've been misunderstood. Sure, the red color is rare. What I was trying to say is just this: Yes, red is at the lower edge of the human frequency spectrum, but this doesn't mean that the red color has only one color neighbour for better distinguishing; I mean, for the human mind the color spectrum is circular, and the red color, too, has two neighbours. Red may be confused not only with an orange-ish tone, but also with a magenta-ish tone, although magenta is in a completely dfferent wavelength league than red and orange.

martin

#33
Quote from: Hardy HeinlinRed may be confused not only with an orange-ish tone, but also with a magenta-ish tone
To illustrate:
Here are two dots, pure red (RGB=255,0,0):


Where have they gone?
Which one is easier to find?


Or in other words, in this picture, going from left to right (or right to left), where does "Red" begin, where does it end?

Cheers,
Martin

Hardy Heinlin

#34
Another illustration ... in words ... about circular problems:

Aviation software developers know the problem of compass calculations; when I'm on 355°, is 005° left or right of me? 005 is smaller than 355, so is it left? But 355-5=350 is not the shortest distance along the compass arc.

The same problem exists with the 24 hour circle, e.g. in the FMC's ETA predictions -- or the RTA speed, that's a good example. At 19:00z, are we after or before 07:00z? Where are we on the daytime arc in relation to the target? We can solve this problem only by using the shortest distance (or by incorporating calendar times).

In other words, two parameters are not sufficient to define a point on a circle. E.g. one cannot mix all possible rainbow colors by mixing violett and red, one needs a third parameter, a third color. Just like one needs a third parameter to handle compass or daytime differences.

Precising edit: For the distance between two points on a circle, always two distances exist; which one is to be used? So, a third parameter is necessary to determine which of the two distances is the relevant one for the given purpose.


Cheers,

|-|ardy


frumpy

Quote from: Hardy HeinlinWhat I was trying to say is just this: Yes, red is at the lower edge of the human frequency spectrum, but this doesn't mean that the red color has only one color neighbour for better distinguishing; I mean, for the human mind the color spectrum is circular, and the red color, too, has two neighbours. Red may be confused not only with an orange-ish tone, but also with a magenta-ish tone, although magenta is in a completely dfferent wavelength league than red and orange.


Our brain works due to the activation of different neurons, which are
interconnected. A certain memory exists as a certain pattern of
neuron activation in our brain.
I think a color sensation in our brain would work the same way
in the visual cortex. It gets activation patterns from the eyes, certain
neurons fire and there we have our color. So yes, phenomenologically
seen, we have colors next to each other, as this represents our
horizon in perception. :-)