Microsoft Ceases FSX Support

[stekeller]

Not sure what this means yet, but for this can't be good news for anybody in the flight sim community.

http://forum.avsim.net/page/index.html/_/pri-news/support-for-fsx-has-come-to-an-end-r677

- Stekeller
KORD

[John Golin]

Not a lot...

Just means they won't host stuff or answer the phone... so no change really.

[stekeller]

Well, FSX requires on line verification (instead of a DVD in the computer's drive) as copy protection and it remains to be seen whether MS still will activate FSX installations or provide on-line weather in the sim. If that happens, new users will not be able to install the software and existing users (like me) may not be able to install it when upgrading computers. I hope that I am wrong.

- Stekeller
KORD

[Hardy Heinlin]

When you own a car, and the car manufacturer retires, can the manufacturer visit you and steal your car keys?

What does the FSX license say? "Valid until MS stops the support"?


|-|ardy

[stekeller]

I don't know Hardy. But with software, those licenses tend to say you are authorized to use it but don't actually OWN it. I may be wrong (and I am not a lawyer), but if MS simply shuts down those servers and declares the product "dead" existing users can still use it indefinitely, but the problem may come when we inevitably get a new computer and wish to install FSX again - or need to reinstall it for some other reason.

- Stekeller
KORD

[Hardy Heinlin]

Understood. Well, if the license is valid for a single installation on any computer, and they would shut down their servers, they first had to offer a free patch that disables the user's dependency from their servers, I'd say. Otherwise, it would be a scandal.


|-|

[Phil Bunch]

I just can't understand why they would systematically stop something as widespread as MSFS.  There is a large installed base out there with zillions of people who participate in some way in the very broad hobby of PC-based flight sims.

I'm not saying I *like* MSFS - I personally only use it for entertainment when my grandchildren visit.  Yet it does serve a role in the universe, including as a scenery generator for other software.

Are there any credible alternatives out there, either nearly ready to use or that could in principle be made ready to use?

I gather that MS fired the fairly large team that had been responsible for this software, so they're probably scattered to the winds.  Thus, I wonder if it's practical for another vendor to pick up the pieces and sustain MSFS under a new name?  Perhaps they have documentation, etc, that would make it at least theoretically feasible to restart the software and continue its maintenance, etc.  

This may be an instance of where there simply wasn't enough $Billions in short-term sales, exponential growth, and profits to please a mega-company like MS.  I wonder if they tried to sell the software to other companies - one would think so but who knows?  Not uncommonly in the USA, things like tax breaks can make it more profitable to kill a division than to sell it at a profit.

Just some speculations and thoughts...

[Phil Bunch]

I wonder how many non-MS software vendors depend critically on the sustained support for MSFS?  I suspect it's a very large number of mostly small vendors,  Some, perhaps including PMDG, have a number of employees and many plans for future upgrades, etc.  Do they have a sustainable future now?

How does Xplane provide scenery?  Is it in principle feasible for other vendors to use Xplane as a scenery generator?  Please excuse my ignorance of Xplane - I've only tried it a couple of times and never became familiar with it.

[farrokh747]

I wonder if it's practical for another vendor to pick up the pieces and sustain MSFS under a new name? Perhaps they have documentation, etc,

That would be http://www.prepar3d.com/

But im not clear about where they're headed license-wise for future, enhanced versions, but i'm very optimistic....

Our end-user license agreement explains that Prepar3D can be used for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment. Lockheed Martin does not offer Prepar3D for entertainment, and we have no plans to enter the entertainment space. Our focus is on learning and training. The bottom line is that it depends on how the software will be used. What it can't do is support just-for-fun simming.

Full Interview:

http://forum.avsim.net/page/AVSIM%20Pages/interview_with_lockheed.html


fc

[Hardy Heinlin]

I just read the interview but I still don't understand. Is it illegal to use Prepar3D for non-training purposes? Is this the problem people are talking about?

If so, who defines "training"? If so, why do they show a kid with cool sun glasses on their promo web site? If so, does MS want to keep the non-training audience, hence gave LM just a part of the cake?


|-|

[John Golin]

I think this is LM's way of putting the burden of how the software is used on the End User where, IMO,  it belongs.  LM create a EULA that says it's for training, and provide services that mirror that.

Being somewhat simplistic - If I violate Microsoft's EULA, is the problem Microsoft's or mine?  Extend that to LM... if I violate LM's EULA, is that LM's problem or mine?

Defining training and learning might be impossible - I think LM have been very clever in the conditions under which they obtained a license from MS.


actually the EULA says

1. License Grant. Subject to the terms and conditions of this EULA, Licensor hereby grants Licensee a fully paid-up, nontransferable, nonsublicensable, nonexclusive license during the Term of this EULA to use the Software, but only on no more than one computer at any one time, only by no more than one user at any one time, and only for purposes other than personal/consumer entertainment.

http://www.prepar3d.com/support/end-user-license-agreement-eula/

[farrokh747]

http://forum.avsim.net/page/index.html/_/pri-news/updated-pmdg-releases-statement-regarding-eula-r639


from the PMDG POV

We have not seen a clear commitment by Lockheed Martin to support the retail/casual simulation marketplace Lockheed Martin has been very careful not to enter the retail entertainment market with Prepar3d and has some very good reasons for not doing so. Without taking a step to enter the retail entertainment simulator market, Lockheed Martin has (in the opinion of PMDG and our counsel) left the door open so that they could, at any time change direction and enforce the terms of the EULA on Prepar3d thus requiring all Prepar3d users to prove compliance with their EULA. When this happens, the vast majority of simmers currently exploring Prepar3d as an alternative platform will be left without a valid license or usage rights because they do not meet the very limited band of allowable users as defined by the Lockheed Martin EULA.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Brilliant strategic move.

Because the only way to run MSFS legally will be by hacking it, all flight simmers will be criminals. Finally we found a way to stop those terrorists.

[vito]

Microsoft will eventually "surrender" license for entertainment purposes to LM when the time comes and when LM will be willing to cough few extra dollars ....  :mrgreen:
FS community will get DX10 compatible simulator but until then I think XPlane will grow into most desirable simulator (and who knows - maybe next version) on the market for civil simulation (it is very likely that PMDG is considering move to Xplane, Carenado and others are already there).

[stekeller]

I recommend giving X-Plane another shot. It is being actively improved and the scenery is a big priority for X-Plane 10. It does not have the "eye candy" that FSX has, but it is a priority of the developer to create a "plausible world" with roads and railroads, moving cars, realistic lighting, etc. It also includes a new scenery editor with building blocks that lets people create their own scenery that still looks good.

Many people become impatient with X-Plane because it is not as finished or as polished as FSX. It is a smaller affair, with only a few programmers and artists, so they do not have resources like the MS team did. So it feels more like a crowd sourced and evolving product line rather than one with all the bells and whistles in from the outset. But they are responsive to feature requests and new betas come out all the time that are open to any user to download. It can be a bit of a moving target, but it is also available for Mac, Windows and Linux simultaneously.

- Stekeller
KORD

[martin]

"personal/consumer entertainment"

What? Flight Simming? FLIGHT SIMMING???

 :shock:

[Hardy Heinlin]

What if EAG would sell nav data to LM, while LM would sell prepar3D to hobbyists, while Navigraph sells EAG nav data to hobbyists who use prepar3D? What a chaos.

Lots of eggs and chicken here! :-)

[Michel Vandaele]

What if EAG would sell nav data to LM, while LM would sell prepar3D to hobbyists, while Navigraph sells EAG nav data to hobbyists who use prepar3D? What a chaos.

Lots of eggs and chicken here! :-)

Yep sure it is. I never understood Navigrpah didn't want to sell you the monthly NAV data too.
Mayb better check once with Aerosoft as they bring a navdata update too now.

B. Rgds
Michel

[Hardy Heinlin]

I never understood ...

I thought I've explained it clearly. Navigraph gets data from EAG (i.e. Navtech); EAG allows Navigraph to sell the data only to MSFS users (i.e. to the non-training/non-professional market) as EAG wants to keep the other part of the market which is understandable, that's their job. I think I've also mentioned that I have an agreement with EAG valid for several years, so Aerosoft/Lido is not an option. I won't even try to change to them because if they modify their plan as well, we would be left with no data at all, neither from EAG nor Lido. I can tell you, or ask any other sim or addon company, getting a deal with a nav data supplier is extremely stressful. What we have now is the best solution we can get. By the way, I have asked Lido, too. That was long before Aerosoft got together with them. It was way too expensive. You can't expect that PSX now gets Lido data indirectly via Aerosoft for a lower price. As long as PSX is used in the training market (I recently learned an airline is still using PS1!), Navigraph and Aerosoft are no options. I will never ever restrict PSX to be used for entertainment only.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[stekeller]

Thanks for making all these efforts Hardy!

I can only imagine how much "fun" these discussions and negotiations are.

- Stekeller
KORD