744 Forum

Good evening all.

Bad news and good news. First the bad news. Then the solution.

Navblue have increased their PSX fees by 300% and on top of it added a 5% price increase every year; that is, the price is 3 times higher and keeps rising exponentially. I can't pass such a drastic increase on to you; only some of you would buy it, perhaps. And that wouldn't help either. Because of the reduced number of customers, the price would have to be even higher, so high, that even the richest would think twice before buying it. Who would purchase one cycle for 15,000 USD? -- I, for one, can't pay these costs either. I'm not rich. In fact, I haven't made any profit from the nav data sales since the release of PSX in 2014. It was even a negative deal, considering the annual cycles I had to buy during the development of PSX, which started in 2008. I had no income in the six years before PSX came out.

There are over 1300 PSX users, but only a few purchase the nav data updates. Just about 200 nav data updates are sold per year, and a part of the retail price goes to the retailers. We're in a very special niche market here. I know there is a company in Switzerland that sells Airbus sims to professionals. They offer 13 cycles (Lufthansa data) per year for about 50 USD. I don't know how they achieve this price. With the offer I got from Lufthansa, I'm completely unable to provide a similar deal to my customers.

Some of the newer forum members may ask: Why not let NaviGRAPH or AeroSOFT provide nav data to PSX? This isn't possible because their suppliers (Jeppesen, Navblue, Lufthansa) don't allow them to sell their data to professional products, and PSX is in that category, no matter whether your are a hobbyist or a 747 instructor.

Solution:

I will cancel the deal with Navblue. I will provide free tools that allow PSX users to edit the existing nav database at any time. You will be able to remove and add navaids, airways, SIDs, runways and so on.


Edit 28 APR 2021 -- Please refer to this new program:
https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6371.0


Edit 1 JUN 2021 -- Aerosoft has released cycle 2105 for PSX (for entertainment only!):
https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/simulators/3486/aerowinx-psx-nav-database-update-2021
They plan to integrate it in their monthly NavDataPro service some day. I don't know when. Maybe next year.
Note: You first need to install PSX update 10.137 or higher.


Edit 11 JUN 2021 -- Aerosoft's database for PSX is now also available at Aviation Megastore:
https://www.aviationmegastore.com/179795


Best wishes,

|-|ardy

This sounds exciting. It would be fun to sculpt some challenging approaches into impossible airports. I'm thinking of the bottom of the Grand Canyon for example. (Seriously, I do think that user modifications to the database would be fun and useful.)

It's also worth reminding anyone who is tempted to panic over this that both SimBrief (which is free) and PFPX export PSX .route files with everything the PSX FMC needs to display and fly a route using current real-world nav data. So if you create a flight plan on SimBrief or PFPX using their real-world data, the corresponding PSX .route file will have current real-world waypoint names and positions. (This won't help you if online ATC says "fly direct ABC," and the position of the ABC VOR has moved 50 miles, but it is nonetheless a very powerful feature.)

Hi Hardy, thank you for sharing the news.

You wrote:

>>But there shouldn't be any automated mass data convertions from other copyrighted products.

Can you please further elaborate on this?

Would it be against the "rules" (so to speak) to create an open source converter between Navigraph data and PSX data format, for personal use?.

For example:  I have an active and legal Navigraph subscription, and let's say I'm able to create a program that understands the format used by PFPX (again, as an example) which Navigraph produces on every cycle, and converts the data so the output would be the format used by PSX. I understand it would be ilegal to share the "converted" navdata files, but the program that PSX users would use to perform the conversion (for personal use, not distribution of converted data) is totally legal (unless you decide to prohibit such a use case in the EULA of your conversion tools).
Am I correct?.

Thanks for the clarification!.
Take care,
-Enrique

Hi Enrique,

maybe it's legal as long as you don't share your private conversion with other users. I don't know. Your Navigraph terms & conditions may have the right answer. I'm not familiar with these products.


Regards,

|-|ardy

For version control you could use Dropbox in the same way that we get our 747 model info for PFPX from Stephen.
Dropbox informs the user when the files have been updated and all you have to do is sync the files and, voila, you're done.

:)

As far as Navigraph goes I use PFPX to generate my route and so long as there are no conflicts it works pretty well, maybe if a conflict arises it is then just a matter of removing or adding the problematic way point....

Cheers,
AlexB

PS I have bought all the Navblue releases as I believe in supporting the developer.... having produced code myself on occasions.... !!

Hardy,

Thank you for the update. I, for one, am very excited about this.

I remember many enjoyable hours spent creating and updating SIDs, STARs and approaches in PS1.3; I somehow find it very therapeutic.

Question. In theory, will I be able to create Kai Tak's runway, add the surrounding NAVAIDs from the 1990s, and therefore recreate a PSX Kai Tak?

Looking forward to all these new exciting features.

Best regards,

Mariano

Quote from: asboyd on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 04:03
Dropbox informs the user when the files have been updated and all you have to do is sync the files and, voila, you're done.

But you don't know whether, say, on Tuesday multiple editors downloaded the Monday-file and then modify the Monday-file differently, and then upload their different Tuesday-mods on Wednesday. Is that correct? In that case, the last uploaded Tuesday-mod will overwrite the other Tuesday-mods. Or, if they aren't overwritten but listed side by side, they need to be merged. Is Dropbox able to do this? With zipped files?

Quote from: Mariano on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 04:05
... will I be able to create Kai Tak's ...?

Yes, you can set whatever you like. (But no curved approach lights.)


Regards,

|-|ardy

Dropbox professional allows version checking under its team settings but that is not going to be available to all... plus it is limited in the team numbers.
There are other ways as you mentioned like GitHub, but most of them are usually associated with an specific application package/modelling tool.
However, maybe what can be done is a way of adding in data, based on local knowledge, which can be merged with the complete database....
Maybe using a front end app that you input the data into and it parses it to the complete package, which then gets flagged as modified... (sort of like an SQL query/update).. As the info gets added into a central package, there is only one "full" package which users can copy.

AlexB

A common way to manage this kind of collaborative project is by having a "maintainer" or "benevolent dictator" sitting on the pile of contributions and deciding what to incorporate and what not, and when.

The idea is that individual contributions are text file fragments that can be written, contributed/offered, and incorporated individually. If they don't overlap each other, they won't bite. Logical units of contribution are whole STARs, whole FIRs, etc.

If we figure out how to divide the central file up in parts then we don't need to version-control the whole file and hope that people don't step on each others modifications.

Systems such Git, SVN etc. are 100% geared towards this model, where text files are diff(erenc)ed against each other and only modifications are stored. Dropbox and friends are geared towards whole (binary) file stacking where the last file wins even if all previous revisions remain accessible.

An SQL option is also possible but probably overkill as the target is text anyway.

99% of the OpenSource contributions to software are text file based and there is a reason they all use Git or SVN or comparable text-patch based systems to keep their sanity.

Git is ultra-complex to use if you approach it the wrong way (nice joke here (https://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net)), but the success of Github suggests that a large number of people are able to fruitfully contribute. It may be a natural filter: if you cannot set up your own Github account to submit pull requests to the authority (like Hardy could be), you probably have trouble writing proper text file fragments for the nav data base, too. This is just my opinion but it is based on decades of experience with this kind of gear.

And the system allows for multiple parallel authorities anyway so making a 'fork' is natural, in case somebody wants special things.


Hoppie

I briefly searched for existing projects that do kind of this thing, but have not found any yet. Still there may be some. Anybody know?

Separate thinking thread.

It's pretty clear that re-distributing somebody else's data without consent is illegal. Nobody should convert, say, Navigraph data and re-distribute it re-formatted for PSX.

It depends on the actual end-user license agreement of said data whether re-formatting data "for personal use only" is allowed. I bet it is not, but I haven't read the EULA. If it would be legal, then we could maintain a piece of software that converts this data, and leave it to legal owners of data to convert for their own use. You would buy a license of, say, Navigraph and then use the distiller on it to get a PSX variant of the original Navigraph data every four weeks. Can somebody read the EULA?

This still would leave our professional users in the cold, so probably it won't be a real option anyway.

As a side note, it also means that if we go for a stack of contributions to a central kind of repository, we need to keep a good track record of where data comes from. Individual contributions should reference the publicly available (AIP) resource and be traceable to individual people, so nobody can accuse anybody from just ripping commercial data. As such ripping is quite straightforward to do, this will remain a permanent challenge to the contribution, so thinking ahead will be required.

But if we do it well, it may even spawn off an OpenSource resource of AIP data that can be used also for other simulators.

And the pro users of PSX may either contribute what they need themselves, or pay somebody to do so. This model is very common in the OpenSource communities.


Hoppie

How about a "nav edit" thread here on the forum?

User X posts: "I'm working on VHHH SIDs."
User Y is planning to work on VHHH SIDs too. So he checks the "nav edit" thread for the latest replies, and notices: User X is already on it.
Two days later, user X posts: "New VHHH SIDs are finished."

Version control by forum thread.

The version code could be a UTC time stamp, e.g. 2021.01.23.1339

I could merge the latest edits manually and upload it.


|-|ardy


P.S.: I will probably make for each ARINC record type a dedicated world file. The types are:

VHF Navaid
Enroute NDB Navaid
Terminal NDB Navaid
Terminal Waypoint
Enroute Waypoint
Enroute Airway
Enroute Holding Pattern
Airport (reference point, TA, TL, ICAO region)
Gate
Runway
ILS
ILS Marker
Approach
SID
STAR
Airport Communication

Each record type gets a "hide" file and an "add" file.
The "hide" file contains a list of objects that are to be hidden in the original database.
The "add" file contains a list of objects that have to appear in addition to the original database.

For those without access... here's Navigraph's EULA's pertinent section.

3. Use of Service
3.1. License
When your purchase a subscription for the Navigraph Service we grant you a personal, revocable, non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-assignable, time-limited, worldwide license to use the Data without the right to copy, modify, publish, sub-license, disseminate and otherwise exploit the Data for any other Purpose and on any Technical Platform other than what is described in these Terms.

3.2. Additional Terms
The Data is provided by Jeppesen who is the owner and authorized licensor and therefore reserves all rights to the Data. For this reason you must also agree to the Jeppesen's Additional Terms attached to these Terms.

3.3. Purpose
You may not use the Service for real world navigation. You may only use the Service for Game-based Learning in Personal Computer Flight Simulator Software where "Game-based Learning" refers to Gaming explicitly designed for educational purposes, or which have incidental or secondary educational value; and "Gaming" means the activity of using a personal computer for problem solving for the purpose of amusement, entertainment, or passing time.

As a list of examples, you may not use our Service for any of the following purposes, including, but not limited to:

1. Real world navigation: Any usage with application for real world navigation is not permitted.
2. Flight schools: Training or education organized by a flight school, or with the intention of logging flight hours towards any type of pilot's license is not permitted.
3. Military training centers: Training or education organized by any military center, or similar, is not permitted.
4. Professional training centers: Training or familiarization as a part of a professional occupation, is not permitted.
5. Research institutions: Usage by research projects conducted by a school, university, governmental institution, research institution, consultancy firm, or similar, is not permitted.

If you are a uncertain about how we may interpret the purpose of your usage, please write to us at dev@navigraph.com. Please note that we only issue personal licenses (see 1.2. Personal Account and 3.1. License). Group licenses, or any form of shared licenses, are not available at this time.

3.4. Technical Platform
You may only use our Service in "Personal Computer Flight Simulator Software" meaning simulators which

a) consume directly, or indirectly via auxiliary addon software, navigational data parsed into a non-ARINC 424 format,
b) are ground-based, and
c) are available as Commercial-of-the-Shelf (COTS) including, but not limited to, Microsoft Flight Simulator, Lockheed Martin Prepar3D, Laminar Research X-Plane.

3.5. Demo
If your account does not have a valid subscription, the account will be set to demo mode which limits access and functionality of the Service.

3.6. Network Connection
There are some functions in our software which depend on a continuous network connection. To use the Service your Compatible Device must remain connected to the Internet.

3.7. Bugs and Service Interruptions
While we have taken great precautions to provide a reliable Service you may at times experience service interruptions or even bugs. We appreciate if you tell us about ways in which we can improve, but cannot offer any compensation.

3.8. Simultaneous Logins
Navigraph Services are offered on several types of Devices: Windows Desktop, Mac Desktop, Android Apps, iOS Apps and in most web browsers. While a Subscription includes access to all Devices, a Subscription is limited to a maximum number of Devices onto which a user Account may be logged in simultaneously. The number of Devices you may use at the same time depends on your Subscription and is detailed on the Subscription page of the Navigraph webpage.

3.9. Changes in Data
While our ambition is to provide predictable uniform worldwide data we sometimes need to offer airport charts of mixed design as a new design is being implemented. Moreover, we may need to remove outdated airports or navaids, or change data formats as new information becomes available. Navigraph therefore reserves the right to change the Data from time to time, in any aspect, including but not limited to, geographical coverage, graphic design, data format, currency and update frequency.

3.10. Changes in Technical Features
Since we are continuously developing and improving our services Navigraph will launch new technical features of the Service. The newly introduced features may change the appearance and functionality of the Service. Sometimes we will remove features which we deem are no longer frequently used. The feature set can also differ between Devices.

3.11. Personally Identifiable Information to Third-Party Software
Navigraph makes it possible to access your Subscription and parts of the Service in some Third-Party Software. You recognize that the Third-Party Software is not developed by Navigraph and that Navigraph is not responsible for actions, functions, design or content in any such Third-Party Software. You are also made aware that such Third-Party Software may have its own privacy policy and set of terms. Upon authorizing Third-party Software to use Navigraph Services on your behalf we will tell you which personal information Navigraph shares with the Third-Party Software. Navigraph and the Third-Party Software are individually, separately, and independently, responsible for the personally identifiable information.

3.12. Unauthorized Third-Party Software
You must only log in to authorized Third-Party Software. The authorized Third-Party Software developers are listed on the Navigraph website.

3.13. Scraping
The Navigraph Service is designed to download Data to user interfaces with the volume and frequency corresponding to that of normal user interaction. You may not use any other automated means including, but not limited to, bots, scrapers, and spiders, to download Data from the Navigraph Service.





Doesn't sound positive for PSX workarounds.  I DO grasp that in the big scheme of things, this is a micro issue in a microcosm... but for the few hundred that use PSX for long haul flights, this is indeed a veritable blow.  I will watch this space closely, as the issue is near and dear to my heart.

C

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 12:30
How about a "nav edit" thread here on the forum?

For nearly every project holds: start out with something you are familiar with and expand only when that begins to hold you back from making progress. So, yes, by all means. This nav aid project is not about re-inventing the collaboration wheel, for which the Forum has been great for a few decades.


Hoppie

I vaguely remember having some sort of online database thing for PS1.3 that did basically the same... anybody with better memory than I have?

The part in red above talks about home use for entertainment, but the idea of a Navigraph-to-PSX translator is prohibited by an earlier clause:

3.1. License
When your purchase a subscription for the Navigraph Service we grant you a personal, revocable, non-exclusive, non-transferable, non-assignable, time-limited, worldwide license to use the Data without the right to copy, modify, publish, sub-license, disseminate and otherwise exploit the Data for any other Purpose and on any Technical Platform other than what is described in these Terms.

Similarly, if you accept Navigraph's EULA, you also have to accept Jeppesen's additions to the EULA, which similarly state:

3. RESTRICTIONS ON USE. The Products may not be used for any other purpose, nor be sold or given by End-User to any third party for any use. Use of the Data by End-User to generate aviation charts or maps, whether for reference only or actual air navigation, is expressly prohibited. The Products cannot be used for performance based navigation procedure design (RNAV-RNP). End-User will NOT: (a) copy, reproduce, reverse engineer, decompile, disassemble or publish the Data; (b) electronically transfer the Products to multiple computers over a network system; (c) distribute copies of the Products or accompanying materials to others; (d) modify, adapt, or translate the Products or create derivative works based on the Products; or (e) assign, rent, lend, sell, transfer or sublease the Products.

Which is kind of a pity, because many of us have real-world, accurate data on our computers; it's just not readable by PSX.

What about changing the license of PSX to include a "Gaming" version and a "Pro" version.  Maybe the "Pro" version costs a little bit more but it includes the NG, etc.

Training schools can only purchase the "Pro" version and individuals can get the "Gaming" version.

If the license is for "Gaming" then maybe Navigraph data can be used?

Unfortunately, Hardy would have to maintain two different products, but the "Gaming" version would have the hooks to include Navigraph and the "Pro" version would not.

Lockheed did something similar with Prepar3D because Microsoft didn't want them selling it as a game.

https://www.prepar3d.com/prepar3d-store/

Just my two cents worth  :)

Mark has a good idea... maybe the "game" version of PSX has a disclaimer on the "About/Quit" page that says "For entertainment purposes only."

For the "Pro" version, you can pay an extra $35 and have the disclaimer removed. ;-)

Actually, now that I think about it, Navigraph and Jeppesen don't want their simulator data used in a setting where people are paying for real-world training. So maybe the solution is to have Game and Pro licenses, where the Game license requires you to attest that PSX will not be used for anything prohibited by the Navigraph/Jeppesen EULAs. The Pro license allows real-world training, but contains a switch that prevents updates from Navigraph. Or else just an agreement that the user won't do an upgrade.

I, too, like the idea of introducing different licence types and go for the Navigraph/Aerosoft option.

To be honest, I also like the idea of being able to edit the datbase (in particular, add new airports or navaids, there many airports in China or Russia which are missing).

But there is a reason why I started to created NavData for PS1.3 some 18 years age (*). The reason being, to have complete and, more important, consistent coverage. I kind of doubt that the system will work for the airway system without any kind of automated bulk conversion of every airway around. It will work for one particular airway, but you'll never know what kind of airway route your planning system will print out for your flight. It seems more plauisble to use the export function of PFPX or Simbrief.
Then again, SIDs and STARs are somewhat different than 20 years ago ... lot of RNAV routeing which is prone to change and more often than not, the coordinates are no longer published on the charts (only in the AIP; and there are plenty of RNAV waypoints). To be honest, I expect submission only for major airports which kind of takes the fun out of flying into e.g. small mountaineous airports like SELT.

Don't get me wrong .. the NavData editor system is something I really like to see. But in my opinion, it needs an additional system to feed the editor with quality data. Not sure if there is possibility for tools that can read various input format (and be it ARINC424) and output PSX-NavData-Editor format on each users system...

Going along the dual licence path seems a more straightforward solution to me.

Markus

p.s.
Needless to say, I personally would pay an increased price. But I agree, it's the statistics that counts.


(*) Note:
... which I cannot and will not repeat these days for a number of reasons.

Hardy

Before you do anything, let me reach out to someone... I have contacts.

I am assuming that you can accept a fully ARINC 424 compliant database before you convert it to a PSX-compliant format?

I find it hard to believe that Navigraph do not want anyone to use the data for commercial platforms, (except for those that have a special deal with them????).
If I read the Lockheed Martin Prepar3d EULA correctly, Prepar3d is not for entertainment or gaming, therefore why do Navigraph include them explicitly in their EULA...

"
3.4. Technical Platform
You may only use our Service in %u201CPersonal Computer Flight Simulator Software%u201D meaning simulators which

a) consume directly, or indirectly via auxiliary addon software, navigational data parsed into a non-ARINC 424 format,
b) are ground-based, and
c) are available as Commercial-of-the-Shelf (COTS) including, but not limited to, Microsoft Flight Simulator, Lockheed Martin Prepar3D, Laminar Research X-Plane.

"


Makes you think if they have read other EULA's....

AlexB

It's the ARINC 424. There most likely are heavyweight safety regulations in place that aim to completely control the production and distribution of ARINC 424 data that by definition can be loaded into real airplane navigation computers. I think (but do not know) that the original producers of the ARINC 424 data, such as Jeppesen and NavBlue, could only allow external export of said data if they guaranteed by process (not by promise) that the loadable airplane parts would never ever leave the controlled environment.

ARINC 424 LSAPs are expensive and too many shady airplane operators would probably like to bootleg these resources. Or at least this is what the FAA/EASA thinks, I guess.

Relatively recently there are severe security regulations around the LSAPs as well, as the authorities are (unfortunately rightfully) afraid that nefarious organisations would like to sabotage airplane software and databases. A bad database can be very dangerous. Modern cryptographic solutions can safeguard databases during transport, but the actual avionics does not have the capability to decrypt or analyze digital signatures. This opens up attack vectors up to the (usually) PC used to load the databases onto final media, which still are often 3.5" unencrypted diskettes. Having true 424 data available makes the attack process simpler. And it surely makes it easier to fumble and mix up.

All educated guesses only; I am far away from the database industry.

The same protections should be in place for the chart material, produced by the same manufacturers, from the same publicly available AIP data.


Hoppie

My thoughts:

- I don't like the idea of a community based navdata db. I don't feel its the right solution here: I suspect it'll just die after a while and its a critical part of the sim. It is a very niche thing and open source requires a lot of dedication over a long time. I love FOSS and the concept, I'm just not convinced it'll work here.

- Navdata have got the market cornered (not in a bad way, I mean that they've got the problem solved). So my immediate thought is how can we overcome the problems with using their stuff?

I really like the idea of Pro vs non Pro. I don't think the overhead of managing this is going to be anywhere near as bad as we think: A simple licence key'll fix this. You've got a pro licence key? The navdata importer thing doesn't work. You've got a normal licence key? The navdata importer will work.

I have no problem with my licence being "downgraded" to a "non-pro" if all that's going to change is the navdata importer. I would even be happy to pay a little bit for Hardy to do the work: Say $50 USD or something (just throwing numbers around here). He's being very reasonable in this situation, I see no reason why I shouldn't be.

To prevent people from sideloading, simply encrypt or sign the files with the importer. Files aren't signed? No navdata for you! It doesn't have to be bulletproof: as long as you've made a reasonable effort to prevent people from doing the wrong thing, problem sorted.

That's the non-Pro side. For the Pro side, well, you're gonna have to buy the "proper" navdata. Please talk to these guys over here and use this format. I've not quite thought this bit through, but maybe there's something unique about the ARINC data which could be used as a fingerprint for the Pro licence key check.

- Alternatively, can we get in contact with Navigraph and ask them? I think their main concern is they don't want someone using their data for real world navigation. This obviously isn't the case here. In fact I think this is probably the first thing to do: Talk to Navigraph. They want to sell their stuff, they'd love to have more people using their data, work with them.

- Finally, what if you change the format of navdata that PSX uses? To, say, oh I dunno, one that just happens to be identical to FS2020 or X-Plane? Copyright could be an issue here though. I strongly suspect that this is not a small undertaking however.

Kudos to Hardy for discussing this with the user base.

Doug, yes, I need an ARINC 424 file.

Hoppie is right. They don't accept a dual license system. We discussed it here on the forum a couple of times in the past. Each customer's personal kind of software usage is just not controllable -- unless I remove significant parts of PSX for the entertainment market. If you get a light-weight game PSX, you can forget it anyway and buy an FSX add-on instead. The data providers are aware of the difficulty in the usage control. The risk is calculated. When they see tens of thousands of FSX gamers on various websites, and see nearly no FSX in a pro institution, they get the impression the risk is low enough. When they see professionals everywhere using PSX, and nearly no PSX on gaming websites, they get the impression the risk is very high. And they are right, of course. A simple label like "Do not use for professional purpose" will not lower the risk.


Regards,

|-|ardy


I'd like to look farther into the future and even consider initiating an OpenSource project similar to OpenStreetMap (https://www.openstreetmap.org/about) -- just not for the ground but for the "skies" (based on AIPs.), and not just for PSX but for any product developers worldwide that are not bound to real-world navigation. AIP knowledge is public knowledge. Why not share public knowledge using a big worldwide community -- like Wikipedia or OpenStreetMap does? As there's no professional requirement, edits need not be done every month.

Quote from: thecrazedlog on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 23:15
I really like the idea of Pro vs non Pro. I don't think the overhead of managing this is going to be anywhere near as bad as we think: A simple licence key'll fix this. You've got a pro licence key? The navdata importer thing doesn't work. You've got a normal licence key? The navdata importer will work.

Everyone could buy a "normal licence key". This will not lower the risk. It doesn't solve the problem.

Quote from: thecrazedlog on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 23:15
- Alternatively, can we get in contact with Navigraph and ask them? [...] In fact I think this is probably the first thing to do: Talk to Navigraph.

:-) We (Navigraph, Aerosoft, myself) have been in contact on this subject for over 10 years. This is not a contact problem. I understand you're currently on page 1. We're on page 509. There were endless, detailed discussions in the past years, and the result was always the same: Zero. -- Period. No way, I'm sorry.

QuoteAIP knowledge is public knowledge. Why not share public knowledge using a big worldwide community

A similar thought occurred to me earlier today. The actual navigation data is widely available online and in the public domain, right? Anyone can download current ARINC 424 data for the entire United States here:

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/cifp/ (https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/flight_info/aeronav/digital_products/cifp/)

So what Jeppesen does is collect these files from all over the world, I'm guessing, and put them together in a way that is uploadable to avionics systems, right?

That seems like a business model that could go rapidly obsolete. Why hasn't someone put together a free service that does the same thing? An analogy: it seems like Jeppesen is paid "want ads" in the back of a newspaper, waiting for Craig's List to come along and put it out of business.

Will, that's interesting that the FAA provides an ARINC 424 file.

I'm not sure if all governments on the globe provide their data in an ARINC 424 format. When we compare, for example, Jeppesen data with Navblue data, we sometimes notice differences in how they code certain conditional SID waypoints, for instance. I don't know whether they always translate drawings (from the governments) to 424-code, or modify 424-code (from the governments) to get a "better" 424-code. I've learned they are not allowed to modify government data. When there's a typo in the data, they have to keep the typo. They report the typo to that government and wait until that government has corrected the typo (maybe in the next cycle). So I think the differences in the data quality occurs because most governments provide just drawings or textual descriptions -- which leave some scope for interpretation re 424-coding. And that 424-coding and testing work is a lot of work. That's one reason why it's so expensive. -- It's really nice that the FAA provides it.


|-|ardy


I just downloaded the FAA's 424 file. It seems to cover the USA and Canada. I'll check what record types it includes.

Quote from: Will on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 23:56
So what Jeppesen does is collect these files from all over the world, I'm guessing, and put them together in a way that is uploadable to avionics systems, right?

The best analogy is with scientific publishers, who collect papers for free from all over the world, have other peer reviewers check the papers for free, bundle them, and then sell them back to those same authors and reviewers for a very hefty price. Their added value? In the time of no internet, for sure the distribution -- but mostly they claim it's quality assurance. Never mind that the reviewers are the real quality assurance, but the publisher adds a layer of branding that "should" guarantee a "minimal level of scrutiny or else the business dries up."

Well we know how many publications are available online these days and do not make much money for Elsevier any more.

Within certain limitations, safety critical information may benefit from these "publisher branding" QA actions as well, and certain procedural rigour is required. However half the world runs on publicly available and peer-reviewed programming code that for sure is business-critical. So cutting out the middle man and going straight to the source (FAA) or adding a peer-reviewed translation layer (for non-424 AIPs) certainly seems feasible. And who knows, maybe other states will start publishing in ARINC 424 as well, if some help is offered.


Hoppie

Hardy,

Could you perhaps add a feature to allow us to create and modify gates, so we can see the PSX blue gate lights?

Best regards,

Mariano

Quote from: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 01:20
The best analogy is with scientific publishers, who collect papers for free from all over the world, have other peer reviewers check the papers for free, bundle them, and then sell them back to those same authors and reviewers for a very hefty price. Their added value? In the time of no internet, for sure the distribution -- but mostly they claim it's quality assurance.

What Jeppesen also added in the past century was their unique graphic style on the paper charts. Very ergonomic. That was pretty innovative -- before the glass cockpit era ...


Mariano:

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 12:30
P.S.: I will probably make for each ARINC record type a dedicated world file. The types are:

VHF Navaid
Enroute NDB Navaid
Terminal NDB Navaid
Terminal Waypoint
Enroute Waypoint
Enroute Airway
Enroute Holding Pattern
Airport (reference point, TA, TL, ICAO region)
Gate
Runway
ILS
ILS Marker
Approach
SID
STAR
Airport Communication

Each record type gets a "hide" file and an "add" file.
The "hide" file contains a list of objects that are to be hidden in the original database.
The "add" file contains a list of objects that have to appear in addition to the original database.

I'm running some automatic record type checks with that big FAA file ...

Re Airport Records -- the file contains:
12983 airports in the USA
711 airports in CAN (Canada)
20 airports in LAM (Latin America)
62 airports in PAC (Pacific)
3 airports in SPA (South Pacific)

Are there 12983 airports in the USA?
(In PSX we've been excluding airports whose longest runway is shorter than 1400 meters.)

VHF Navaids:
USA: 1041
CAN: 95
LAM: 21
PAC: 22
SPA: 1

NDB Navaids:
USA: 591
CAN: 91
LAM: 7
PAC: 16
SPA: 2

Terminal waypoints:
USA: 33725
CAN: 1590
LAM: 107
PAC: 423
SPA: 25

Enroute waypoints:
USA: 25892
CAN: 2065
LAM: 113
PAC: 909
SPA: 3
EEU: 23 (Eastern Europe / China)

Enroute Holdings:
Zero. (Holdings in SIDs, STARs, approaches are coded in the related procedure itself.)

ILS:
USA: 1266
CAN: 29
LAM: 3
PAC: 10
SPA: 1

ILS Markers:
Zero.

Runways:
USA: 13494
CAN: 688
LAM: 24
PAC: 94
SPA: 8

Gates:
Zero.

Airport COM:
Zero.

SID Legs:
USA: 31677
CAN: 492
LAM: 169
PAC: 241

STAR Legs:
USA: 35893
CAN: 288
LAM: 106
PAC: 344

Approach Legs:
USA: 122748
CAN: 5104
LAM: 312
PAC: 1385
SPA: 96

Airway Legs:
USA: 17487
CAN: 1566
LAM: 166
PAC: 554
SPA: 0
EEU: 2
Total airway IDs: 1541

Restrictive Airspace Records (not used in PSX):
USA: 24007
CAN: 2864
LAM: 230
PAC: 442

Grid Minimum Off Route Altitude (MORA) Records (not used in PSX):
236

Airport Minimum Sector Altitude (MSA) Records (not used in PSX):
USA:  5617
CAN: 143
LAM:  16
PAC:  67
SPA: 4


...

https://www.statista.com/statistics/183496/number-of-airports-in-the-united-states-since-1990/ says there is around 20,000.

Here's some stats from the Bureau Of Transportation Statistics with an excel doco that can be downloaded: https://www.bts.gov/content/number-us-airportsa

So 13,000 that would show up in a waypoint database sounds plausible......

If you wanted to do a user contributing project then I would suggest a git hub project is the correct way.

For the past few years I have seen it run very well to keep the U.K. controller pack for VATSIM updated with "navdata" updates.

https://github.com/VATSIM-UK/UK-Sector-File

However.... look at how many updates from so many people are needed to keep the U.K. up to date.

I just can't see a user sources navdata update being practical.

There has to be another way

Cheers
G

Hardy

Check your email...

Sorry for catching up so late in the thread...

Excellent initiatives already suggested, but I wonder, regarding the licencing issues, how Prepar3d ( professional + academic ) versions manage to get navdata from navigraph or the aerosoft version without restrictions ?

Mentioned also Airlinetools, which I signed for a few days, receiving 1 year navdata updates ?

Hi Hardy,

Firstly many thanks for your efforts over the years in supplying us with annual nav updates in addition to the tremendous product you have created that is PSX. I guess this situation always had a high probability of arising given the professional nature of PSX.

I for one would be happy to pay more for annual updates, but I wonder if the best of both worlds can't be achieved? I would welcome the ability for user-editable data (version controlled or otherwise), while still retaining a professional update option.

I appreciate none of these is easy and only you can decide if they make commercial sense. But as long as you keep producing new features, I am more than happy to support you as a developer.

Looking forward to seeing what the future holds!

Regards, Steve.

Really sorry to hear this. I cant offer any suggestions, but I've struggled on Vatsim lately with some SIDs/STARS being out of date, even in the UK.

While we wait until there is some feedback (if it can be done publicly) from the idea Doug came up with ...

> I just can't see a user sources navdata update being practical.

I fully agree and this is basically what my previous message said.

User contributed navdata will not work practically, period (IMHO. I occasionally contribute to openaip.net and it's a nightmare... ) expect maybe in certain hotspots like EGLL, KLAX, EHAM, YSSY... for all the other airports (Worldflight!) it's back to day 1.

Just to summarize:
- price for NavBlue data: not feasible
- dual license:  not possible
- agreement with Navigraph/Aerosoft: not possible
- user edits for NavData: possible, but most likely not feasible for global operations
- Doug's idea: .... tbd (standby)
- one more idea:
  I know that Aerosim's FMS Trainer (back then) came bundeled with a tool which
  allowed the conversion of 3.5'' NDB disk content to Aerosim's FMS format.
  No, I'm not suggesting that (I does not contain sufficient data, anyway, for PSX).
  But is an Aerowinx-supplied ARINC424-to-PSX tool an option? E.g. for the FAA data file?

Markus

just maybe i dont fully understand   and have limited understanding so there is 300 peolple that buy the update why not the mighty spartans ask navigraph to support PSX   and we pay for such support and there after just falls under such subscription ? no     

never.mind  i.now understand   

See Hardy's message here: https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6267.msg67721#msg67721

"We (Navigraph, Aerosoft, myself) have been in contact on this subject for over 10 years. "

and cavaricooper's message here: https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6267.msg67709#msg67709

"You may not use the Service for real world navigation".
"Professional training centers: Training or familiarization as a part of a professional occupation, is not permitted."

PSX is (in terms of majority of licences, I assume?) in the professional training market.

I guess it is a product liabilty issue, given as a legal requirement by the commercial data providers - make sure that the data - by no means - never ever is used in an environment related to real airplane operations (flight planning, training, etc... ). Guess what happens when you tell the lawyers that the pilot who crashed trained his approach on PSX with NavData based on a gaming license the day before

Markus

QuoteNavblue have increased their PSX fees by 300% and on top of it added a 5% price increase every year;

Hardy, is this an increase per sold update or an increase of the sum you pay to navblue. If it is the latter than you have to earn back the expenses and you depend on the sale of the upgrade. If it is the first then a PSX owner can upgrade for about 100 euro's a year or leave it. Many of us spent heaps of money on hardware and software for an 100% experience. Well for me a good NAV database is part of that experience and that 8 euro a month is worth the money!

QuoteNavblue have increased their PSX fees by 300% and on top of it added a 5% price increase every year;

It feels to me like they told Aerowinx "we no longer want your business". A threefold increase cannot be justified by any other means I can think about.


Hoppie

Quote
Well for me a good NAV database is part of that experience and that 8 euro a month is worth the money!

I agree ... don't forget that this is the price I'm already paying to Navigraph...
But on the other hand, don't forget they announced 5% annual rise...

> A threefold increase cannot be justified by any other means I can think about.

Or, in a commercial company, anything is possible. Maybe the sales agent position is now filled by a new employee and he has no longer the old PSX friendly attitude ... or has been given new targets, commercially, or he/she has just calcuated the "real costs" of PSX (including lawyer rate, ... ). They may have streamlined their processes, whatever...

Hardy,

I am sorry to hear of such attitude from the navdata supplier. I am on Markus with this one, i.e. lack of understanding, new targets, or desire to drop you as a customer (i.e. not worth their time). Nonetheless, none of these is good. Instead of building a long lasting and beneficial relationship.

Nonetheless, I hope that Doug can pull some strings at the right places and do some magic. As I remember from the PS1 days, navdatabase updates were good but infrequent and eventually stopped. This is a challenging task and not easily manageable as a hobby.

I can only think of one work around. PFPX export feature works and one has all waypoints on desired flight. This however does not address published SIDs and STARs. I am not sure if PFPX can exports flight-plans with SIDs and STARs. Additionally changes in navaids such as shutting down of VORs and NDBs, this will not be reflected (not a bad thing from my point of view).

Nonetheless, it goes without saying, that I would gladly support navdata updates, even with price increase.

I do hope that eventually we will have some positive outcome out of this grim situation.

Best!

I am totally agree with Andrej, especial the point with wiiling to pay for databases.

Best luck
Steff

If Hardy were to maintain a two version strategy so that the game version could somehow use Navigraph data, I would be most happy to pay an annual license fee to "play" that game.

Quote from: Markus Vitzethum on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 14:20
openaip.net ...

Interesting! I didn't know something like that already exists. Looks like a good start. Things can always be improved.

Quote from: funkyhut on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 21:31
If Hardy were to maintain a two version strategy so that the game version could somehow use Navigraph data ...

A dual license system is not possible. Please see my comment here:
https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6267.msg67721#msg67721

Quote from: Ton van Bochove on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 16:48
Hardy, is this an increase per sold update or an increase of the sum you pay to navblue.

The latter. I see some of you guys would pay 100 EUR plus retail costs and tax, plus 5% anual price increase. But as only a few of you would pay this price, the sum for Navblue will not increase, maybe even decrease, and that's a risk I can't take. Contracts usually run for at least five years.


There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30
There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

That would be my preferred course of action & solution.

Hi Hardy,

just had an idea just after getting up ...

> But as only a few of you would pay this price, the sum for Navblue will not increase,
> maybe even decrease, and that's a risk I can't take.

Understood ... you need to invest a large amount beforehand and you will not know in advance if you have a 100% return of investment.

But there is solution to this type of problem ... why not change the business model to Crowdfunding?  (e.g. on Kickstarter; need to check if it falls into the allowed categories).

The basic idea would be to set up a crowdfunding goal which covers the Navblue costs. The risk for the creator is probably low, but we will need to do some reading, I guess. The way I understand it, the project will not start and no funding will be given to the creator, if the goal is not met (e.g. the NavBlue costs + adminstrative costs).

For the donator, the risk is probably low because money will only be deduced from his account, if the crowdfunding goal is reached or exceeded. So, there is little risk in contributing. (But if the goal is reached, it's a binding contract). But it only works if enough people sign up!

So ... you know beforehand if you have enough money and you know the amount of people contributing. Very low risk on your side (or, whoever starts the campaign.)

I understand that a campaing has a certain amount of time given ... could be the lead time for negotiations with NavBlue. You will probable need a quote and a feedback time with an "accept/reject quote" decision.

We could do this every year... or more often, or less frequently...

Markus


edit:
p.s.
More thoughts ... do we know the price for multiple NavBlue cycles per year? There must be some kind of discount if you buy more ... (all the commerical contracts in my company work that way; that's how the game works).

Also, if a supplier tripples prices, usually we ask a competitor (here: Lido, Jeppesen) for a quote. Is that already ruled out or still possible? Can the request be renewed? (I know that Lido partnered with Aerosoft and Jeppesen with Navigraph... )

edit 2:
Quick scan through the kickstarter guidelines reveals no obvious rules violation. NavData is something that must be created, it is new, it can (must!) be shared with contributors, it's not illegal and not a financial service. Sounds good.
Only rule that applies .. only the content creator is allowed to start the crowdfunding campaign. So that would Hardy.

Hi Markus,

crowdfunding is too chaotic when Navblue's typical 5-year subscription schedule is running. It's not possible to change the 5-year contract every few months.

Of course, the more you buy, the cheaper the fees. But the sum is still way over the top.


Regards,

|-|ardy

I wonder how Prosim and Jeehell do their navdata?

Anyway, openaip.net could be a solution?

Hi there,
It's a really bad news.
After reading all your posts, I must admit this situation is very frustrating.

I can't imagine running MSFS or Xplane as visual generator with (useless) updated&professional quality navdata and PSX with "low quality" manually updated navdata from an opensource platform!! It's a shame!!

Excuse me but PSX deserve a better solution than that.

For me this solution is interesting and a guarantee of quality. this makes sense

Quote
There's yet another possible solution:
I outsource the entire PSX nav stuff to a special consortium of high-end PSX users (big-sim communities). They may get a contract with Navblue (or Jepp or LH), get an ARINC 424 file annually (or even bi-annually), I could convert it to PSX code free of charge for that consortium. The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

Business plan could take into account an engagement of PSX licenced user to buy these data update.
Or perhaps a subscription between this consortium and "normal users" could secure the investment.

We could start a poll to ask if PSX users want to make a deal reality ?

Godatum

> Anyway, openaip.net could be a solution?

openaip.net is targeted more towards creating an airspace map (my view on things) than having a full navigation database, or in other words, for the VFR pilot. I see little relevant IFR data. (Airways, ILSs, RNAV wayoints).

Hardy,

> crowdfunding is too chaotic when Navblue's typical 5-year subscription schedule is running.

understood. This is a position I'm sure each of us understandy easily.

But on the other hand ... why not cover the full 5 years by crowfunding? If I'm not wrong it does not increase the risk on your side but slightly on "our" side (trusting you that you will remain in business for 5 more years). When I run the numbers, I come up with 91.5k€ (incl. 5% annual rise and Kickstarter fees) or 455€ for 5 years.
If you decide that it's worth a try (signalling NavBlue that the triple is accepted - usually not a good thing; it will never get cheap again), there is little risk for you - if the project fails on kickstarter, there is no cost for you.
(Note: I cannot rate the influence for a tax declaration... )

Markus

Hardy, do you (as Aerowinx) have to commit to purchasing a certain number of data sets from Navblue over the 5-year contract lifetime? Or does your contract just set the price?

If it's the latter, if it's pay-as-you-go, then it may be worth seeing what the market will support in terms of a price increase. As was said above, sim enthusiasts often do pay a lot of money to support their hobby. The current download price for a navdata update is about $30 USD, right? Three hundred percent of that, plus 5% yearly increase, is still just around $100. I would bet that price wouldn't scare everyone away.

You could probably even continue at that price for a year or two while you worked on a permanent solution.

Of course, if this is an upfront expense to you, meaning if you have to risk your own cash to pre-purchase a certain number of downloads, or pay large fees to set the contract up, then I understand if it's not a risk worth taking.

Of course, this has already occurred to you. :-)

It's the former.

Understood. Thanks.

I would be surprised if there isn't a good, workable open-source solution to the problem. For example, the United States has always made the entire navigation database available free of charge. (For paper charts, you'd pay just the cost of printing, but the data itself was not copyrighted.) With the switch to the Internet, you can now download all American charts at no cost, in PDF form and in ARINC database form.

How Jeppesen made their money back in the day was three-fold: (A) personalized subscription services, that removed things from the master database that an operator didn't need, (B) operator specific airport charts, and (3) really beautiful graphics. (I still think their charts are beautiful; they need to win some kind of design competition if they haven't already.)

So Jeppesen didn't have access to proprietary data; they just made public data beautiful, and convenient.

This is why I think there's room for competition. They can't be the only owners of the world's navigation data. Someone just needs to find worldwide equivalents of the North American ARINC file I linked to earlier, and then write a parser that turns the format into something PSX can use.

The cost would be up front in putting it all together, but once it's assembled, just press the master switch to re-collect the data every two weeks and the PSX database is updated at no cost.

Of course, I no idea how this really works. Can you just get data for Europe, North Korea, and Antarctica the same way you can download North American data? I obviously do not know. But my guess is you can.

Quote from: GodAtum on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 10:40
I wonder how Prosim and Jeehell do their navdata?

Prosim's navigation data was provided by Navigraph.

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 24 Jan 2021 22:30

The consortium could then use it in their big-sim services, and, to reduce their costs, also sell copies of the PSX nav data to "normal" PSX users. The entire sales profit would go to the consortium -- of which I won't be a member; I don't want any profit. My part would be the data conversion job only.

Regards,

|-|ardy

I would be willing to be a part of such arrangement. I will commit to buy...In the past have bought the Nav Data regularly ever since I started on PSX.

Quote from: Will on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 15:30
Someone just needs to find worldwide equivalents of the North American ARINC file ...

That's why I think OpenAIP as an international platform would be a good start. Users in various countries may gather data for their favourite regions, once or twice a year. However, I don't think that every state provides data in ARINC format. And not every state provides data free of charge. At least Australia doesn't. The American NGA offered worldwide data (DAFIF) free of charge; the free service ended in 2006 because the Australian government introduced some fees: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAFIF

Perhaps the FAA's ARINC data is produced by this firm: https://aeronavdata.com/

All the firms (Navblue, Jepp, LH, AeroNavdata) produce the ARINC data differently; you can see differences in some conditional waypoint coding style, and even disagreements in navaid locations due to typos. So I think the original government data doesn't always come in ARINC format.

Anyway, if I provide tools to convert ARINC data to PSX format, any Aerowinx-independent project is possible: A consortium of high-end sim builders & nav data resellers, or a special crowdfunding group, or various private data managements (e.g. airline specific). In all cases I would exclude myself and just offer the conversion tools free of charge. (Remember, I'm just a single human being with a finite lifetime; it shouldn't all depend on myself. This note is especially important to the younger ones that have big plans with their sims for the next decades.)


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Mon, 25 Jan 2021 23:45
Anyway, if I provide tools to convert ARINC data to PSX format, any Aerowinx-independent project is possible: A consortium of high-end sim builders & nav data resellers, or a special crowdfunding group, or various private data managements (e.g. airline specific). In all cases I would exclude myself and just offer the conversion tools free of charge. (Remember, I'm just a single human being with a finite lifetime; it shouldn't all depend on myself. This note is especially important to the younger ones that have big plans with their sims for the next decades.)

If anyone is keeping tally of numbers, please count me in to contribute to any solution to this.
Thank You.


Quote tags edited.

Hello Hardy,

Given that this is a flight simulator and not an actual flight,
the navigation data does not change as much as that,
and that we are already using the cycle of the month of March
and not the whole of one year, as long as the fmc gives us a correct periodicity,
that suits me well and it will be able to still hold in the five years to come,
this by using the last cycle to date (March 2020) .
Of course, that will not prevent the solution negotiated with the suppliers.
We are with you wholeheartedly.

isaaclevi

isaaclevi, not to change the subject, but is that a DHC-6 Twin Otter cockpit in your avatar photo?

Quote from: Will on Tue, 26 Jan 2021 13:20
isaaclevi, not to change the subject, but is that a DHC-6 Twin Otter cockpit in your avatar photo?

yes ,it is Will

I am no expert in Nav databases and I also own the A3XX sim. They use Lufthansa LIDO as you probably know. I wondered if this would be a feasible change. Obviously, I don't know if it's compatible with 744, but I assume the licencing use would be identical. Sorry if I sound stupid, just mentioned because I didn't see anybody else suggest.

Nim

"A3XX sim" ... That's the Swiss company I mentioned in the first post of this thread:

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat, 23 Jan 2021 00:40
... I know there is a company in Switzerland that sells Airbus sims to professionals. They offer 13 cycles (Lufthansa data) per year for about 50 USD [all together]. I don't know how they achieve this price. With the offer I got from Lufthansa, I'm completely unable to provide a similar deal to my customers.

(The licencing and the binary file formats of their products are not identical to those of PSX.)


|-|ardy

Hello all,

don't want to sound rude, but has there been any progress on this topic? I hope that the situation is not as bleak as it sounded initially.

However, I would like to ask, if there is any group of sim owners / enthusiasts forming to jointly address this issue (i.e. purchasing nav data and distributing it). If yes, what are the conditions to join such as group? I am more than happy to join (given that I am eligible).

Thanks!

I'll develop a conversion program. More details later ...


|-|ardy

This is one thread I have been regularly checking..To be not left behind. Thanks Hardy

Me too, standing by for more news! Kudos to all problem solvers involved!

The idea of a common consortium didn't succeed, unfortunately. The technical goals are too different, it seems.


|-|ardy

Hi,

I wanted to send this post long time ago (right after reading the initial post) but...

I must say I lost track a little bit and don't know if there is a new supplier (or "supplier") and you only need to write a new compiler, or you stay with your initial idea to allow us to create / modify SIDs, STARs and APPs.

If it is the second one. I want to remind you something I asked for already in the Alpha days: a bigger map, outside PSX, since it is difficult to work with the existing one (you need to zoom in a lot to read something – at least in a WIN machine with alternate font – and then moving aside covers a very short range and it is not comfortable).

Few months ago, when I made the new Israel's routes to the Gulf area, I thought to ask for it again but I didn't and I take the opportunity now.

It can be very similar to what there is in PSX, it doesn't have to cover all options (only the navigation stuff) but I want to ask for an option to see SIDs, STARs and APPs on the map separately.
I mean: to select from a list of airports (or to type it in a text box since there are many airports) but then to select from combo boxes only one (of each type) of the procedures (which will also show TRANS if exists).

I know I add to your workload but this is something I want you to think about (if you didn't already  ;) ).

Cheers,

Hi Avi,

that would be a very big extra program, almost like another EFB. Unfortunately, that lies outside my capacity ...


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat, 13 Feb 2021 01:10
The idea of a common consortium didn't succeed, unfortunately. The technical goals are too different, it seems.


|-|ardy

Och, I am sorry to hear that. Is there any way to know, what was the price / cost for such service?

Thanks!
Andrej

Circa 15,000 USD per cycle and 5% price increase every year.

Hi guys
So, if I understand correctly, imagine we are 250 customers who wants to buy 1 cycle per year it would be around 60$ ?
I'm sure we could find an acceptable solution
Bastien

Note that it has to be a contract for at least 5 years, and the price will increase 5% annually (exponentially).

Thanks Hardy. I am sorry that it did not work out. I do hope that we can find at least 150 of us, that are willing to invest USD 100 (+ 5% increase for next 5 years) into this.

IMHO, it is worth it.

Best!

Probably most of the users around here are also familiar with Hervés updates for FSX / P3D

https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids.html

i am in   where to send bucks

At up to $150 for a five year, once a year contract, I'm in.

Quote from: jcomm on Thu, 18 Feb 2021 16:54
Probably most of the users around here are also familiar with Hervés updates for FSX / P3D

https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html

https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids.html

Interesting, is this an option?

It appears to be in FS bgl format and could be converted I think....

AlexB

@Hardy: what do you need for a nav data editor? I'm willing to create one.

I'm rather surprised that the current provider wants to rip (all of us) off like that. What the hell do they think they'd gain? Instead of a bit of income, they just guaranteed zero income. Makes no sense beyond there is some reason they DON'T want to distribute to this market segment.

Either they got greedy, lazy, or someone put pressure on them to cease selling it.

Quote from: United744 on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 05:19
@Hardy: what do you need for a nav data editor? I'm willing to create one.

I'm already working on new software. The development will take some time because I want the program to be  intuitive for non-experts as well.

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 06:01

Quote from: United744 on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 05:19
@Hardy: what do you need for a nav data editor? I'm willing to create one.

I'm already working on new software. The development will take some time because I want the program to be  intuitive for non-experts as well.

OK! :D

A shame this had to happen at all. :(

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 06:01

Quote from: United744 on Fri, 26 Feb 2021 05:19
@Hardy: what do you need for a nav data editor? I'm willing to create one.

....intuitive for non-experts as well.

I am ready to contribute my time for testing... I clearly fall in the Non experts bucket..

Out of curiosity, is there a way to use our airline's FMC nav database subscription with PSX somehow?

The data package your airline gets from your nav data provider may include both binary data (FMC) and ARINC-424 formatted data. If you get ARINC-424 formatted data, you will be able to convert that to PSX data. I'm developing a convertion program for that purpose. It will be finished in a couple of months and will be free of charge.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:24
The data package your airline gets from your nav data provider may include both binary data (FMC) and ARINC-424 formatted data. If you get ARINC-424 formatted data, you will be able to convert that to PSX data. I'm developing a convertion program for that purpose. It will be finished in a couple of months and will be free of charge.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Thanks Hardy! Excellent solution.

Looking forward to it,

Gilad

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 14 Mar 2021 16:24
The data package your airline gets from your nav data provider may include both binary data (FMC) and ARINC-424 formatted data. If you get ARINC-424 formatted data, you will be able to convert that to PSX data. I'm developing a convertion program for that purpose. It will be finished in a couple of months and will be free of charge.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hi Hardy,

Just got the response from Honeywell regarding out FMC nav database.

"Honeywell navigation database contents are packed in Honeywell proprietary binary format that can be read by the target FMS."

I can assume it is not ARINC-424 compliant is it?

Hi Gilad,

Honeywell's binary format is not the ARINC-424 text format. So that can't be used, unfortunately. Besides, the binary FMC database doesn't contain all data you need for the sim. E.g. it doesn't contain NDB frequencies and no marker beacons, and no COM frequencies (although that's not essential for sim training).

Do you get any further nav data products from any company? E.g. paper charts, EFB stuff etc.? You need to ask them what their price is for ARINC-424 data. Also, if you need no worldwide data, you may ask for training specific regions, e.g the regions you use in the LH sims.

(You need not purchase the USA region; that can be downloaded free of charge from the FAA website.)


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hello Hardy,

As expected, I am starting to see databases mismatch between PSX 2003 AIRAC and the current AIRAC I am using to build my flight plans etc... I think I am not the only one.

First of all, thank you very much for trying so hard to find a solution. If I can help in any way, don't hesitate to let me know. May I ask for informations ? Is a solution rising and if yes, will it be available soon ?

Thanks again
Best regards,
Jean-Philippe

Hi Jean-Philippe,

a partial solution will be available soon. It will be one step forward ...


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hi Hardy,

Great news. Thanks for the information. Again, if I can help in any way don't hesitate.

Kind regards,
Jean-Philippe

Dear Hardy,
Since I intend to buy your spectacular Aerowinx 744 PSX Flight Simulator software soon, I was following this thread about NavData updates with much interest.
As I understood, the key problem is that NavData vendors fear that their data are illegally used for professional products (like PSX) and thus reduce their revenues.
As my contribution, I would like to bring in the following idea, so to say as a possible compromise:
Aerowinx prepares the 13 yearly ARINC-424 NavData updates with a -one week deferred- validity start date for usage in the PSX simulator.
This specifically would mean for the next AIRAC cycle 20-05, that becomes valid on 20.05.2021:
The current cycle 20-04 is continued to be used in PSX until 27.05.2021 and first then is substituted by 20-05. The cycle 20-06 follows on 24.06.2021, instead of 17.06.2021, etc. This procedure would make the NavData in PSX useless for any professional/commercial usage, because of lack of valid worldwide NavData for a complete week. On the other hand, the flight simmers receive actual and valid data for 3 weeks per each cycle.
I do hope that this idea is feasible in your eyes and also acceptable for the 744 community and finally may contribute in renegotiations with the navdata vendors that until now refused to deliver data on behalf of Aerowinx customers.
Best regards,
Eric

Dear Eric,

the delayed release principle sounds like a good idea, but I suggested it to them already. They won't do it. It's against their business model. They have many non-airline customers who would be able to work with outdated data as well.

I understand why they won't do it. Imagine a farmer were to sell half of the milk production to some special people at 30% of the regular price by storing the milk in the house for a month before selling it. It's against their service principle which is based on "freshness". The business model would fail if they were to sell outdated products at a 70% rebate. I also asked the same question Jeppesen back in 1992. I just got their current data.

I must admit, we've been lucky with their prices in the past ten years. When I started the agreement with Navtech in 2010, the amount of nav data was just 50% of the amount today. I guess there's a lot of human work required to gather government data worldwide and transform the information to industrial standards.

The USA part alone already covers about 30 to 50% of the worldwide data. Luckily, the USA and Pacific parts can be downloaded at the FAA web site. A certain company produces ARINC-424 data for the FAA on a monthly basis, and the FAA is so generous and makes them available to all of us -- free of charge.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Some new stuff:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6371.0


Regards,

|-|ardy

https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids3.html
https://www.aero.sors.fr/navaids.html

Can these .bgl files be converted?

My converter can read ARINC 424 only.

Adding new VORs isn't a big problem anyway. In the past 10 years the world got about 200 new VORs.

That's just 20 VORs per year. It's easy to add them manually with Navburo.


One more tip for VATSIM users who want to fly the latest SIDs & STARs at every airport of the world: If the usage of the latest charts (paper or electronic) is part of your realism, don't forget that the 744 can also be flown on raw data. That's also a part of the realism. You're not forced to fly every procedure just by following a magenta line on the map. You can also switch the ND to VOR mode, so that you get a classic HSI instrument with RMI pointers and a CDI. Enter the VOR radial that is to be intercepted on the NAV RAD page. Fly the procedure as per the text on the charts.

Of course, it's not a complete solution, but it's part of the realism. If you want to fly like a pro, you also need to have some raw data IFR skills like a pro :-)


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hello Guys,

I think we must study closer the Xplane11 airports and nav datasets as they are in open readable and well documented format.
(https://developer.x-plane.com/docs/specs/)

Xplane11 can be FAA certified for training and used by professionals as well as home users.
Xplane11 can read directly the FAACIFP file, or get update from well known navdata suppliers.
(https://developer.x-plane.com/article/navdata-in-x-plane-11/)

Airport data are community updated and can be done by anyone with WED tool
(https://developer.x-plane.com/tools/worldeditor/)
The database contains more than 39,000 airports
(https://gateway.x-plane.com/airports/page)

We could get good quality data and feed Hardy's converter with just some reorder and little modifications

Good news.

I'm discussing a new solution with Aerosoft.

But this will be available to hobby users only.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Tue, 25 May 2021 10:34
Good news.

I'm discussing a new solution with Aerosoft.

But this will be available to hobby users only.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Cool!
Thanks for information Hardy.

Great news!

great news

Thanks Hardy for continuing to work through solutions.

Hope the negotiations go well!

Steve.

Thanks Hardy from an enthusiastic hobbyist.
Your efforts are very much appreciated.

purely my thought, I am ready to pay as well. Thanks Hardy

Great news! They didnt answer to my mail and probably they didnt even read the whole text but it doesnt feel that pointless at least. :)

Good news indeed!

Excellent news - looking forward to what you and Aerosoft come up with!

I also did contact Aerosoft, since I had purchased PSX, NG FMC and NavData 2003 from them (along with their own product CRJ550/700 for MSFS2020).
They answered my e-mail, but mentionned that Aerosoft has no plans at the moment to find a NavData update product for PSX.
Hopefully, Hardy is more successful!!

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Tue, 25 May 2021 10:34
Good news.

I'm discussing a new solution with Aerosoft.

But this will be available to hobby users only.


Regards,

|-|ardy

thank you for your effort!

We just ran Navburo with Aerosoft test sources. All looks fine. No errors.


|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Thu, 27 May 2021 08:45
We just ran Navburo with Aerosoft test sources. All looks fine. No errors.


|-|ardy

Woow! that's amazing Hardy!! cannot thank you enough for this

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Thu, 27 May 2021 08:45
We just ran Navburo with Aerosoft test sources. All looks fine. No errors.


|-|ardy

Excellent!
When do you think to give us more information about that solution (release date, coverage, price) ?
Thanks
Bastien

Very exciting news.

Great news, Hardy!!!

All's well that ends well!

Wonderful news!

Thanks for your persistence in searching for a solution.

Charles

Step 2:

(https://aerowinx.com/assets/pics/psxWithAerosoft01.jpg)


But this step is still insufficient, as I wrote many times in the past.

So there will be a step 3 which will be a major change for me, and for that I'll need a little help from some of you guys (no money, just photos!). More details later ... :-)


Regards,

|-|ardy


(Step 1 was the development of Navburo.)

Amazing and thank you Hardy. I knew that there will be alternative solution to this.
I am ready to help, if needed.

Best!

Hardy, I'll be pleased to help!

Let's light this candle!

Count me in.

Mariano

Step 3 seems interesting - what it might be? With photos? Better to have Navburo than Politburo.

If you need photos to show we are not using professionally, then no problems.... I guess a spare bedroom in total disarray will count :)


Cheers,
AlexB

Happy to help Hardy.

Thank you for your tireless efforts.

Cheers, Steve.

QuoteI guess a spare bedroom in total disarray will count :)

In the basement here. Similar disarray, probably.

So here's the next and final step.


Good morning all,

Aerosoft can provide databases to PSX when two conditions are met:

The first one is an additional license function regarding entertainment usage. As we know, such a license alone is insufficient in the context of PSX; we discussed this with all companies several times in the past ten years. That's why there is now this second condition: A completely new marketing towards entertainment! Away from the professional segment. That's a big step. It hurts me, but it's the only way. I stop promoting PSX to professionals. I'll remove the entire "Professionals" web page and everything referring to "professional". Instead, the new website will represent the existing NON-professional customerbase. When this segment gets visible, lawyers unfamiliar with technical systems will hopefully better understand what this is all about.

I'd like to make a large gallery with sample photos that show the usage of PSX linked with scenery generators in a hobby context. Can you enthusiasts help me? I'm looking for photos of flight deck mockups -- big and small, with real or self-made parts, or with any desktop parts for hobby simmers. The photos should show the PSX instruments along with external scenery screens. In other words, they should show the facts of how PSX is used. Of course, as this is a PSX web site, it would be nice if the pictures put the focus more on the PSX screens than on the external scenery (for which there are other dedicated web sites).

If you support this idea and have something to show, I'd appreciate it if you sent me some photo material I can choose from. You may also include your opinion of the product quality etc. in two text lines or five. I would add that to the related photo. And you may add your nickname or real name. If you maintain a web site about your home cockpit, I can add your link too.


Thank you!

|-|ardy

Email (https://aerowinx.com/html/address.jpg)

This is a BIG step Hardy, taking PSX in a new direction is certainly not without risks.

I am sure you have considered this, but of course none of us wish to see any harm being done to the brilliant work and countless hours you have spent getting PSX where it is today.

THANK YOU for your support of the enthusiast community.

I have sent you a couple of emails.

Regards, Steve.

Well Hardy,

that was a HUGE and certainly painful / complex decision, but, as always, you have put your users interest, and comfort, ahead of your own !

From my part, with no sim presently installed, other than PSX, and having long decided to not use external sims because that would require an investment in a better rig, and actually none of what I tried convinced me of any benefits in terms of the type of use I give to PSX other than maybe while taxiing, I could only send a photo of my desktop with a T16000 stick, and PSX running an LPPT approach under bad weather :-) - but I'll try to send it in time anyway ;-)

THANK YOU for your SUPPORT !

All the Best !

Hi Hardy,

A big thank you for all your continued support toward us
enthusiasts.
I too use PSX on a single pc at home and I am very happy with that.
I can send you some photos with different cockpit  layouts , in different
flight phases.

Thank you
all the best
Panos

Amazing news! While I can understand how tough it must have been for Hardy to take this decision on such a Complete and Realistic Simulator that is perfectly capable of serving as a Professional Training System, this is a decision that will guarantee PSX doesn't end up in the same parking lot as so many other softwares we as enthusiasts can only dream of using because of costs that only million dollar companies could afford to maintain!

Unfortunately I don't have any HomeCockpit to make the picture for the Website cover!

WOW,

I sense your sadness on an end of an era that started 30 years ago (if not earlier).

Cheers,

QuotePSX linked with scenery generators

So you're not interested in photos of a PSX stand-alone setup with a Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS and a large monitor on a table in my basement? That seems to say "hobby pilot" to me, but I have no scenery generator. I suppose I could tape a photo of some clouds to the top of my monitor...

Same here, I run PSX stand-alone, mostly in hotel rooms on a Windows Surface PC.

I do have a small setup at home, but it is also stand-alone.

Should pictures of either of these help, I will gladly uplink them.

Thank you and best regards,

Mariano

Hardy,

I thank you for your hard decision to take this step.  I too am one of those using a stand-alone computer, stick, mouse and keyboard without scenery generator.  I am learning a lot.  I am 88 and live is a senior living facility. PSX is a good tool for one like me.  I still have my good memory and cognitive skills.  I use PSX almost every day to exercise these along with the add-ons provided by you and other PSX users.  Situations and routes may be as simple or complex as you desire for a given day.  You may use this information as it is a non-professional use much as puzzles and mental games are for helping preserve senior metal acuity.

Charles

Hi all,

the photos should show the home cockpits of "hobby pilots". The background is: Microsoft, for example, call their sim a game. It helps when PSX is shown within this game context. However, some photos of PSX stand-alone may be added as well. But the user of the displayed PSX shouldn't be an active airline pilot or researcher.

Charles, wow, I have a lot of respect for you, Sir.
I remember your name from the old PS1 forum. I will certainly add your comment to the gallery. Thank you! Do you also have a little photo of your PSX desk? It's not necessary but it would be nice.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hardy,

I don't have photos of setup because it's basically non-existent, however, I have published two youtube videos of PSX connected to X-Plane. Will this help? In any case, here are the videos:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jiho-jWwYSY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WWqWAv1gkn4

-E

Thank you, Enrique. I'll add your YouTube links ...


|-|ardy

Here's a comparison of the database sizes:

(https://aerowinx.com/assets/pics/psxDbCompare01.png)

However, not only the providers make the difference but the cycle dates too make a difference. E.g. the number of marker beacons certainly decreases in the recent Navblue databases as well.

The Aerosoft database includes more gates in the USA anyway.


|-|

Hardy,

Thanks for your kind reply.  I just got the Thrustmaster Throttle and Rudder Pedals and will be trying to connect them and try them out.  Once I get them working and networ a couple of computers, I will send you a photo for your gallery.  Thanks again.

Regards

Charles

Hardy,
I have emailed some pics in a zip file to your info mailbox.
If you need more let me know :)

Cheers,
AlexB

Hi Hardy,
Only have a youtube clip linking PSX with MSFS,
Hope this is  of some use.
Ivo
https://youtu.be/fNRuLwciTOk

Thank you for your kind mails, gentlemen.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hi Hardy,

Thank you for all your hard work. This is fantastic news. I have a selection of photos on my Facebook page https://www.facebook.com/747simuk (https://www.facebook.com/747simuk)

Thank you, I'll take one of your photos.


|-|ardy

Hardy,

I support your decision to take PSX in this direction but it saddens me that it has come to this. I can only imagine how hard this decision has been for you, after 3 decades of commitment.

Thank you for the tireless dedication & support you give to us your customer base.

Steve.

Thanks, Steve.


Hi all,

Aerosoft just released cycle 2105 for PSX:
https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/simulators/3486/aerowinx-psx-nav-database-update-2021

They plan to integrate it in their monthly NavDataPro service some day. I don't know when. Maybe next year.

Please note that their database requires PSX 10.137 which I uploaded yesterday.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Tue,  1 Jun 2021 14:28
Thanks, Steve.


Hi all,

Aerosoft just released cycle 2105 for PSX:
https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/simulators/3486/aerowinx-psx-nav-database-update-2021

They plan to integrate it in their monthly NavDataPro service some day. I don't know when. Maybe next year.

Please note that their database requires PSX 10.137 which I uploaded yesterday.


Regards,

|-|ardy

You Rock Hardy !
Thank you very much for your continuous efforts!

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Tue,  1 Jun 2021 14:28
Thanks, Steve.


Hi all,

Aerosoft just released cycle 2105 for PSX:
https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/simulators/3486/aerowinx-psx-nav-database-update-2021

They plan to integrate it in their monthly NavDataPro service some day. I don't know when. Maybe next year.

Please note that their database requires PSX 10.137 which I uploaded yesterday.


Regards,

|-|ardy

bought  8)

thank you!!

Hello Hardy,
My congratulations regarding the new Aerosoft AIRAC Cycle 2105 for PSX!
I just bought the package and downloaded the zip file that was called:
AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105.zip
The structure of the zip file is as follows:
Navigation\-Custom\List\2105-Aerosoft\Binary
The 47 data files under \Binary are dated 27.05.2021
Am I right, that I have to copy the zip file into Aerowinx folder \Extra?
After starting PSX version 10.137, the newest cycle was not listed in Instructor/Navigation database.
(default navdata still Navblue 2003)
What did I miss?
Thanks for your help!
Best regards, Eric

Hi Eric,

no, don't copy them to "Extra".

Please check that you have 47 files in this "Binary" subfolder:

Aerowinx\Navigation\-Custom\List\2105-Aerosoft\Binary\

When you have selected both checkboxes on the About page, "2105-Aerosoft" should be selectable from the dropdown menu on the About page.

This Aerosoft database will not be the default database; it will be a custom database (in the "-Custom" folder). The default database remains the one by Navblue which can be used by professional users.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Hello Hardy,
All clear now. It worked as you described!
I had, in my hurry to update PSX, not observed that Aerosoft offers a perfect description of the installation process on their website!
Sorry for that and thanks a lot for your quick help again.
Best regards, Eric

Hardy,

I know that many of us have been addicted to your work since the 1990s, but it still impressive the speed with which you tackle and resolve issues big and small (this one being the former, since it was mostly out of your hands).

The expression "thank you" is quickly losing its punch around this forum yet, again, THANK YOU! ;-)

Best regards,

Mariano

Thank you, Mariano :-)

Eric, just curious: Did you unzip the Aerosoft ZIP in your Aerowinx folder? And did the unzip process keep the existing Navigation path? Or did it generate a second "Navigation 2" path?

Awesome, thanks once again Hardy!

it's good that Aerosoft plans to introduce it in their navdatapro, it means that it will be updated monthly.
For the moment is this the only AIRAC release or they plan un update in the future months?

thanks a lot.

I don't know. Maybe next year. I don't know.

Hello Hardy!

THANK YOU, works just perfect, as always.

Regards Robert

Hello Hardy,
If I extract the zip file into my folder \Aerowinx, the following path is taken:
Aerowinx\Navigation\-Custom\List\2105-Aerosoft\Binary
No duplicate of \Navigation occurs.
Quite simple thus.
Regards, Eric

Thanks Hardy, works perfect very easy to install!

John

Worked perfectly, Hardy! Thank you for your support!

If Aerosoft decides in the future to include PSX as an official Navadatapro option in its monthly cycle, I'd switch from Navigraph in a heartbeat!

Thank you again, Hardy!
-E

Great !!  :)

Instant purchase...

Thanks that a solution could be found.

Carsten

Thank you again Hardy for your support of this community and amazing software!

Way to go...
Great work Hardy.

Cheers,
AlexB

Excellent Hardy you are truly the best. Respect for your hard work and customer service.

Purchased and installed with no problems. My thanks to you and Aerosoft for making this new option a reality! Indirectly, PSX is using good old Lufthansa LIDO nav data once again, which is a great thing. I never thought you were being well served by Navtech/NavBlue, and I am even more convinced of that after dealing with their database in MSFS.

Hi All,
      After half an hour finding the most difficult and longest way to install the aerosoft  nav data. I finally read the instructions (all else had failed)  I have the program up and running. DUH.
I cannot say often enough how  much I respect Hardy for his ongoing contribution to the Aerowinx family. At 85 I have three great pleasures in life, my wife, my golf and PSX!
So thank you, thank you, thank you. 

Cheers

Derek
NZAA

Will this data (Aerosoft) be published (for purchase) on a Monthly basis from now on?

Just purchased the Database cyle from Aerosoft. Installation was easy (followed the instructions on Aerosoft page) and am able to see the AEROSOFT 2105 cycle available as an option in the ABOUT page.

I'm glad that the Aerosoft database works for you guys.

Note for new users: You first need to install PSX update 10.137 or higher.

Aerosoft wants to integrate the database update in their monthly NavDataPro service some day. I don't know when. Maybe next year. I don't know.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

That was quick!

I got message few day ago about long awaited Honeycomb throttle quadrant arriving and so delayed with taking a photo of home cockpit setup. But seems that it not needed anymore.

For a moment the current situation in flight simulation seems to be good - Honeycomb is arriving, PSX got fresh Aerosoft navdata, there is nice video of X-Plane  Technology Preview One. So feeling fine!

Had a look at their bundle offering of charts and navdata, looks interesting.
Also most of the popular addons are supported by the Aerosoft navdata as well....

Thank you Hardy another job ticked off the list and done with the level of precision you always provide :)

Cheers,
AlexB

Hardy,

thanks for this update. I already purchased it. My Navigraph annual subscription is up this August and I am moving to Aerosoft. Simple reason, they cooperate with you.

Best!

Thanks a lot

This looks like a real win for the Aerowinx community. If/when Aerosoft moves to monthly updates for PSX, then users will have the possibility of an integrated suite of (1) FMC navdata, that (2) matches the real world for things like virtual online ATC, with (3) the possibility of matching charts that can be displayed on an iPad or printed.

Only downside for those of us who grew up on Jeppesen will be getting used to LIDO format... (or else have dual subscriptions, to Aerosoft for the navdata and Navigraph for the charts).

Still, a real win.

Hi Hardy,

everything works good. Thank you very much!!!

Best regards, Volker

QuoteOnly downside for those of us who grew up on Jeppesen will be getting used to LIDO format

I downloaded the Aerosoft charts today: something completely different and I miss the Simlink. Lets give it a try!

Edit: one great advantage is the completeness of the SID/STAR database of Aerosoft

Navigraph previously used LIDO charts. Only (rather recently) they changed to Jeppesen. It is a matter of "getting used to it". I liked LIDO format, but Jeppesen was first format I was exposed to.

There are many positives and negatives for both providers. Navigraph supports Topcat for example. Navdata Pro, besides the obvious, its bundle is cheaper. So one needs to consider each preferences and needs.

https://blog.navigraph.com/post/158703930126/jeppesen-charts-to-the-flight-simulation-community

Hi all,

the new Users page is now online. If anything is incorrectly quoted, please let me know.

https://aerowinx.com/html/users.html

(If you don't see the "Users" title on the menus, please refresh your Browser.)


Thanks again!

|-|ardy

It works.

Great User Comments and setup´s!!

Steff

Hi Guys,
I have just noticed that some of the gates in the Aerosoft db are missing. I can not find gate 32 at YSSY. I have been using this gate since getting PSX as it was the gate I left from for many years to travel to Singapore/Paris on 747's.
Does anyone know how to reinstall the gates?
Or at least find out which ones are present in the Aerosoft Navdata...??

Cheers,
AlexB

Update,
I just tried YMML and again no gates are provided in the database. Bummer....

Ah well make do I guess  :-\

AlexB

Navblue cycle 2003 has 136 gates at YMML and 205 gates at YSSY.
Aerosoft cycle 2105 has 139 gates at YMML and 205 gates at YSSY.

There's no gate "32" anymore. But the amount of gates is still 205. Maybe they have changed some identifiers on their apron. That sometimes happens at other airports as well over the years.

You can compare the gate list on the Analysis page. When you change databases on the About page and you want to recheck the Analysis page, you first need to refresh the Analysis page by entering a different airport.


Regards,

|-|ardy

Will give it a go. According to the local aviation organisations charts YSSY still has gate 32 and YMML still has gate 11, both of which I could not get (plus others at the same airports).
Will check in PSX again after trying a different airport.

Cheers,
AlexB

Looks like aerosoft have taken to designating the gates based on the terminal type so "I" for international gates, "D" for domestic, etc so instead of the Aviation Australia standard we now have to use I32 instead of 32.... That is confusing as none of the charts use I or D, etc.....

Regards,
AlexB

D-gates are in Navblue too. E.g. D32 and D32A ...

I guess they used D to differentiate between Intl 32 and Dom 32....
Seems strange that Navblue and Aerosoft use different designations.
I will have to retrain myself to think "I"nternational :)

Cheers,
AlexB

If you have two gates of the same name "32", their building assignments may be visually clear on a chart, but the FMC cannot know which "32" is meant when the pilot just enters "32".


Regards,

|-|ardy

I gathered that, just seems strange I have not had to use the "I" before now....
There are also C and non Alpha assignments as well.
I am guessing that the Alpha is associated with a terminal designation, the non alphas are just apron parking slots.

Cheers,
AlexB

Hi Alex,

I've just uploaded AIRAC 2106 to my Dropbox and included a gate file along with airports and runways.

Regards, Steve.

Thank you Steve,
Will have a look :)

Cheers,
AlexB

I was right when I wrote that I was confident in Hardy to find a solution and did not want to put pressure on him ...
Thanks again.

François

Hi all, following the instructions on this page https://www.aerosoft.com/en/flight-simulation/simulators/3486/aerowinx-psx-nav-database-update-2021

I unzipped the downloaded file to the Aerowinx folder. So that Aerowinx/AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105

I PSX and tick the boxes. Then restart PSX.

But I cannot see the "2105-Aerosoft" database from the database selection drop-down list.

I suspect I actually need to copy and paste the unzipped directory structure not as stated in Aerosoft's instructions.

So when unzipped the structure is AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105\Navigation\-Custom\List\2105-Aerosoft. And I copy that 2105-Aerosoft folder to Aerowinx\Navigation\-Custom\List?

From the link above:

This will copy the nav data automatically into the subfolder Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List

This is (2105-Aerosoft) where its suppose to be, not Aerowinx/AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105.

Cheers,

It did not for me. When I unzipped it it went to Aerowinx/AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105

I had to manually copy AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105\Navigation\-Custom\List\2105-Aerosoft to Aerowinx\Navigation\-Custom\List

Quote from: GodAtum on Fri, 11 Jun 2021 16:30
I unzipped the downloaded file to the Aerowinx folder. So that Aerowinx/AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105

I think you first need to copy the zip file to the Aerowinx/ main folder. Then you double-click the zip within that Aerowinx/ main folder.


By the way, Aviation Megastore in The Netherlands now also sell the Aerosoft database. They added it to their shop today.


Regards,

|-|ardy


GodAtum, I just realized I forgot to add one of your Facebook photos to the new Users page. You kindly suggested it somewhere in this thread. Now it's added:

https://aerowinx.com/html/users.html

Thanks hardy, that makes sense.

No worries, glad I can help and thanks once again for your amazing work  :D

Hi there,

just out of interest, are they RNP Departure Routes in the new Database? I mentioned, that in EDDF OBAKA 2W, and OBAKA 2K is missing. Or is it because the 744 isn'able to fly it? I thought that the NG FMC could handle it.

Thank you for answering in advance.

Best regards, Volker

Hi Volker,

if I'm not totally wrong, I don't find it in other sources (e.g. the 2020 Default NavBlue database) either... 

If it's coded in the databases, it should be available in the Default database, because the chart is dated May 2019, but it seems not to be coded in a nav database.

Markus

Hi Markus,

thank you for your quick response, i think you are right, my fault. I thought the routes with designation K and W are still alive. My paper chart ist from 2019 :) Sorry

Have a great day

Volker

Hi Volker,

it was not meant that way - the chart is still active and can be viewed in Jeppesen (Navigraph) and LIDO (Aerosoft) chart subscriptions. But it doesn't seem to be coded into NavDBs.

Markus

Hi Markus,

ok, i see, thank you very much.

Volker

The Aerosoft database includes many RF legs.

But I noticed the Kathmandu RF stuff is no longer included. However, I don't know if this is Aerosoft specific or a general change.


|-|ardy

In our company-issued iPads (with Jeppesen FD Pro X), VNKT RF procedures have disappeared as well (I noticed this a few weeks ago - don't really know for how long this has been so).

Best regards,

Mariano

The VNKT charts exist for us on Jepp FD pro as we fly there.

I haven't looked at the navdata in PSX, but the LIDO VNKT RF charts are included in the Aerosoft NDP charts app.

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat, 12 Jun 2021 13:22
But I noticed the Kathmandu RF stuff is no longer included. However, I don't know if this is Aerosoft specific or a general change.

Disregard my comment. The Kathmandu RF stuff is included in Aerosoft's database. I was ignoring my own rules: I had loaded the old Kathmandu situ file and forgot to select the NG FMC option on the Model page.


|-|ardy

We have 3 networked computers running instances of PSX, we have installed the new Nav Database and it does show in the dropdown menu, but every time we restart PSX the database defaults back to....well, "Default" - is there a way to select the Aerosoft database automatically? thanks

What files are in your subfolder Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/Misc/?

The last database selection is stored in listSelect.txt when quitting PSX in a normal way. How do you quit PSX?

Hi guys

I have followed the instructions of aerosoft to install the AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105 10.00.53 and what I get it is a second navigation folder that by default it is named navigation 2, but I do not get anything in the instructor panel. Any ideas? than you

Hi, I don't know why it didn't work for you, but if you got this result ...

Aerowinx/Navigation 2/-Custom/List/2105-Aerosoft

... just move "2105-Aerosoft" to the "List" subfolder at ...

Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List/

... so that the full path looks like that:

Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List/2105-Aerosoft

When that works, you can delete the subfolder "Navigation 2". PSX doesn't use "Navigation 2".


Regards,

|-|ardy

I had a similar problem like Manualpaz, but with the additional subfolder /List/

after downloading the file in my Aerowinx main folder, i got the result:

Aerowinx/Navigation 2/-Custom/List/2105-Aerosoft

and i had to move it manually to the subfolder at

Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List

That worked for me as well...

Regards, Timo


EDIT: i saw you added /List/  ;D; that means, it's exactly the same problem...

2nd EDIT: maybe important: macOS 11.4

Could this be an issue re Mac versus Windows?

Did any of you macOS users instantly get the correct path just by unzipping?

If I recall well...: it installed correctly in my 2017 iMAC (OS 11.4) and as Navigation 2 in my 2011 iMAC (OS 10.13.6). After correction of the path in that 2011 iMAC, it worked without any problems.

Regards,
Simon

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat,  3 Jul 2021 18:06
Could this be an issue re Mac versus Windows?

Did any of you macOS users instantly get the correct path just by unzipping?

it seems that if you "drag and drop" or "unzip" an identically named folder in macOS that FINDER will
automatically rename that folder by adding a suffix (default "keep both"-mode).
If you "drag and drop" an identically named folder by pressing an holding "OPTION"-key, you will be asked
if you want to "merge" the folders. (what we should have done with the aerosoft-zip-file)

Timo

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sat,  3 Jul 2021 16:36
Hi, I don't know why it didn't work for you, but if you got this result ...

Aerowinx/Navigation 2/-Custom/List/2105-Aerosoft

... just move "2105-Aerosoft" to the "List" subfolder at ...

Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List/

... so that the full path looks like that:

Aerowinx/Navigation/-Custom/List/2105-Aerosoft

When that works, you can delete the subfolder "Navigation 2". PSX doesn't use "Navigation 2".


Regards,

|-|ardy

Thank you for your answer Hardy. What I have in my navigation folder it is a folder named new, other old and a lot of files, I do not have any folder named custom in the current navigation folder where to add the AEROWINX_PSX-NAV2105 23.40.29 10.14.38 files. Thank you for the help

To get the -Custom folder you need to install and start PSX update 10.137 or higher:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4191.0

Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Wed,  7 Jul 2021 11:08
To get the -Custom folder you need to install and start PSX update 10.137 or higher:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4191.0

Hardy, thank you very much for the help. It is working fine now.

Quote from: Mariano on Sat, 12 Jun 2021 17:35
In our company-issued iPads (with Jeppesen FD Pro X), VNKT RF procedures have disappeared as well (I noticed this a few weeks ago - don't really know for how long this has been so).

Best regards,

Mariano

Not sure if it's your case, but we don't have those RNP-AR charts in iPad as well since we're not allowed to fly those procedures.

I'm closing this thread because that single Aerosoft nav database from May 2021 is no longer available. Aerosoft now provides monthly nav database updates in their NavDataPro product, and for this I just started a new thread here:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=6808.0


|-|ardy