It's been further unveilled, and looks simply gorgeous !
The links bellow are just a couple from the many already available accross the Internet since yesterday.
It's going to be a true change of quality in many aspects, with the new features regarding World and Weather modelling.
Flight Dynamics model also completely written from scratch.
All of this, "unfortunately", when my focus of attention and pleasure in using this virtual worlds and aviations has turned almost 100% into a game - War Thunder :-) I look back and see, in the mist of the past, the many hours spent at the desktop pretending I was a captain, or a 1st officer, driving my airliner, but at least FS 2020 with it's very plausible depiction of practically all places on Earth could at least serve as a tranning tool for emmergencies in the areas I fly for real :-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj8h6yibHHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDTT3oxArLI
I also understand that the devs of FS2020 are aware of the PSX sim builder community and very much interested in making it work as a visuals generator ;D
Let's hope that the managers of the devs of FS2020 are equally interested in this.
A phenomenal world simulator that can be easily networked would be a real asset to many sim communities. It's a pity that the FS team has to concentrate on the "F" part - the airplane part. If they just concentrated on creating a world that users could move a camera through, and leave all the flight dynamics, aircraft sim portions, ATC, etc., to others, we'd have a real game changer.
Quote from: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Tue, 1 Oct 2019 23:16
Let's hope that the managers of the devs of FS2020 are equally interested in this.
This turn around I believe they really are / should be ...
Quote from: Will on Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:22
A phenomenal world simulator that can be easily networked would be a real asset to many sim communities. It's a pity that the FS team has to concentrate on the "F" part - the airplane part. If they just concentrated on creating a world that users could move a camera through, and leave all the flight dynamics, aircraft sim portions, ATC, etc., to others, we'd have a real game changer.
Well, it's possible already in ESP and derivates as well as in FSX, so I guess it'll make it's way into FS 2020 too.
But with the more advanced flight dynamics, and the SDK, maybe one day Hardy or someone with the same talent, finds a way to implement a sophisticated airliner directly in on of these platforms ( FLIGHT SIMULATOR or X-Plane ). Heck, their flight dynamics are very powerful already, and other systems can be programmed outside and plugged in effectively. Problem is, most of the guys who do that do not have the background / expert knowledge and talent Hardy has.
The weather/atmosphere model seems very impressive. For the first time the cloud formations and buildups look like they should.
I really, really hope we get VisualPSX (or something equally good) for this.
It looks beautiful.
As I understand it, however, there are no plans to support multi-screen setups. Could be an issue for cockpit builders?
If they mean it when they say that they are making this first and foremost to flight simulator enthusiasts, they should add multi-monitor support. It is such a widely used feature, and not just for us who use PSX.
For me providing they give an option for injecting position we should be okay as we run multiple visuals PC's and can sync them as we do now with external sim.
However we shall see :-)
Having watched a few videos on YouTube by the lucky few ;-) invited to Seattle, it sounds like FS2020 will be released very much as a work in progress. So initially no multi-monitor support but in time there will be. Same with VR. Fingers crossed!
Quote from: Traffic on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 19:54
... it sounds like FS2020 will be released very much as a work in progress...
The managers want the users to find the bugs and see where the market really heads, before committing resources... It may simply mean more game and less simulator, if money is all that matters.
Quote from: Gary Oliver on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:05
For me providing they give an option for injecting position we should be okay as we run multiple visuals PC's and can sync them as we do now with external sim.
Have a chat to Chewwy on this topic. He reported here encouraging the developers to enable the use of MSFS as a scenery generator. https://www.twitch.tv/videos/488371467?t=4802s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/488371467?t=4802s)
Just picked up a rumour that all of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player. This would require a permanent good internet link. Not sure whether this rumour has any base in reality but for sure it matches perfectly with the anti-piracy war, backend heavy iron, Steam, etc.
It would also enable a MSFS Store with add-ons and scenery linked to your credit card and available, for rent or for sale, at the selection of a checkbox.
Enter new airspace?
[popup]
Would you want to enable photorealistic scenery for this airport for $0.99?
Hoppie
For emergency landings.... quadrate the price of the airport .... ;)
H.
Quote from: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:11
Just picked up a rumour that all of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player. This would require a permanent good internet link. Not sure whether this rumour has any base in reality but for sure it matches perfectly with the anti-piracy war, backend heavy iron, Steam
So for a multi-viewport scenery generator, just run three instances of this player (and perhaps pay three licenses).
My guess was that only the geographic data such as terrain, satellite imagery and vertex clouds will be streamed but the graphics are still rendered locally.
Quote from: Hoppieall of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player.
Not quite. Apparently it will be a "three-layered" approach:
¤ online, scenery streamed,
full quality;
¤ "pre-cached": download scenery in advance, then use cache during actual session;
quality?
(in theory ought to be the same as above, but will people (be able to) pre-download
and store 10 GB for their local 30nm GA hop? :-[) ;
¤ offline, nothing cached;
reduced quality (how much?)
In any case, I'm sure purchase of new more powerful hardware will still be required. Old habits die hard, and Tradition must be honoured... ;D
Disclaimer: AFAIK.
Cheers,
Martin
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-reboot/
"There are several skills needed by pilots that can be practiced on this kind of flight simulation technology. Examples are hand-eye coordination, flight-related multi-tasking and instrument interpretation and scanning" says Captain Marie Stridh, flight captain and pilot recruiter at SAS Scandinavian Airlines.
Quote"There are several skills needed by pilots that can be practiced on this kind of flight simulation technology. Examples are hand-eye coordination, flight-related multi-tasking and instrument interpretation and scanning" says Captain Marie Stridh, flight captain and pilot recruiter at SAS Scandinavian Airlines.
These skills were already needed in the sims of the 1980s. No wonder: You can't fly without these skills.
So, not a new challenge. Just an advertising slogan for newbies.
|-|
Lastest Episode - Weather...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WYhU0-kN8c
The video clips are beautiful, of course. They are also completely stutter-free, which is a result I don't trust Microsoft to actually deliver.
I don't know what the top-of-the-line gaming specs are these days, but Microsoft Flight Sim 2020 will probably need something 500% better than what's available on the day it's released.
The popular boards (Avsim, FlightSim.com, etc.) all used to have pinned threads about the 40,000 tweaks that were felt too be necessary in order to get performance that is still below what people expect with a high-end machine.
I exaggerate... Perhaps Microsoft will surprise us this time.
Although I am not at all on top of hardware developments these days, I have the impression that "progress" sort of slowed down, and has nearly halted in some areas. The limitations of physics make themselves apparent. Latest developments seem to focus on getting more cores onto a chip die, or on supporting edge processing such as more video blasting and CPU relief for other tasks that benefit from dedicated hardware. Away from the previous Intel-style "One CPU for us all and the rest can be done away with."
So we may not have that familiar 500% overbuilt software syndrome this time.
And I still want to see how much they put in their Azure blast furnaces and how much you actually get to install on your home cooker. Anti-piracy definitely has found its way in only streaming video encrypted for just your device or chipset, and no longer allowing downloads or installs.
One good thing: whereas old MSFS was notorious in not allowing multithreading, and so could not use any multicore CPU for real, the P3D modifications by its caretaker did enable these. It would be completely silly if the new MSFS would not use the same technology and actually make those cores work. Not the same code -- just the same approach. MS developers are not stupid; if management allows them to build quality software, they will do so.
Hoppie
I'm doubtful, but open-minded. If the result is good, they'll have my congratulations. And probably my money, too. :-)
I speculated about this a while back... but it seems to me that scenery generators like MSFS try to achieve smoothness by flashing multiple static images at as many FPS as the computer could generate. But this seems to have limitations when you're trying to display thousands of shapes on one frame.
So I wonder if a better approach would be to set the FPS forever at 24, the frame rate of motion pictures, and then create smoothness the same way film does, which is to blur motion between frames. If you freeze a film frame and look at it, what's moving will be blurry. But if you watch the film, the "motion" seems natural. Which makes me wonder if this technique could work for scenery generators, then there would be computing overhead left by capping the frame rate at 24.
Just thinking out loud. Sorry if this is too much of a hijack.
Will-
FWIW I have capped my frame rate at 24 for years, and just a few months ago, in the pursuit of silk, dropped it to 20 where it has stayed. My test is the default scenario with the F22 and if I can roll it and Spot pan without any pause or jerk, I'm good to go. That is where I have stayed, and that is where I have been happy.
In the large jet transport aircraft I fly, the motion is indeed silk- and except for the occasional long frame with scenery loading around 20 miles out- I have no complaints.
I firmly believe that the lock gives the machine capacity to use processing for functions that are impacted without the frame lock.
Only one opinion, and I'm aware of what they say about opinions :)
C
PS- I'm beginning to think that Flight Simulator 2020 will move the goal posts for most
The simfest team are excited for FS2020 so I'm fairly confident that there will be a PSX-FS2020 bridge solution at release, or very soon after. ;)
I really do look forward to MSFS reinventing itself. If they come out with a product that's both beautiful and fluid, then they've excelled and they deserve the praise they'll get. I'm eager to see what the final product looks like.
I think it's one of the unfortunate myths circulating the community that 20-24 Hz (or frames per second) is all you need. This is completely untrue, and I would say for an airliner you would need a minimum 50Hz for a decent experience that feels natural enough. Virtual Reality is yet another story and there I would say a good starting point is 80Hz.
Also, the MSFS and Prepar3d flight model runs at only 18Hz, and it shows. Hopefully things will be imporved in the new upcoming version.
Quote from: Mark on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:04
The simfest team are excited for FS2020 so I'm fairly confident that there will be a PSX-FS2020 bridge solution at release, or very soon after. ;)
Mark, thanks for the update. It goes without saying that your entire team's contribution to VATSIM, PSX, and FS is incredible and a lot of us are grateful to you for it.
I am certain that thank to you, the visual immersion of FS2020 with PSX will make for a great experience.
Old movies used to run at 16fps and I never remember seeing any individual frames. I'm also set at 20fps since my main PC is very low end and needs all the help it can get! I'm not entirely sure why 50 fps is _neccessary_ - desirable without a doubt, though.
1. Movies cheat: although the frames are at a certain rate, they flicker the lamp at double that rate with a shutter.
2. Movies cheat: when they expose a frame during filming, the exposure is not brief enough to freeze the motion. They blur fast-moving objects. This blur actually helps your eyes and brain to smoothen out the low frame rate.
Didn't realise that. Thanks Hoppie.
What Hoppie said in point two above is what I was alluding to with a new approach to flight sim graphics. You can guarantee buttery smooth motion without any jerkiness if you factor in motion blur.
Of course, without motion blur, the higher the FPS the more smooth, especially when the landscape that's depicted is changing rapidly (like if you're in a tail spin). Without motion blur, given a certain rate of change of what's being depicted, then more FPS means more smoothness.
But think about your favorite movie where things rush by really fast, say perhaps, the assault on the Death Star from Star Wars. You watch that in the theater and don't discern any jerkiness, despite watching it at 24 fps. The reason is that individual frames that contain motion are blurred.
How we could do this in a sim is to calculate frame A. Then calculate frame B. Then project frame 1, which is an interpolation of A towards B, blurring the things that move. (A dot that moves from one location on frame A to another location on frame B would look like a smear on frame 1.) Next, calculate frame C, then project frame 2, which is an interpolation of B towards C.
Repeat this ad infinitum, and you would get cinema-quality effects at only 24 fps, leaving, in theory, excess computer time to work on other things.
By the way, I implemented this kind of motion blurr in PSX in the external traffic objects. Each of these aircraft consist of nav light dots. But PSX doesn't draw dots, it draws lines. Lines between the dots of two time frames. The lines get longer when they move faster, or when the frame rate decreases, or when the time acceleration increases. It's the most simple motion blurr method as they are just lines between dots :-)
It's not just a gimmick. If they were just dots you would hardly see any of these objects when their angular velocites are high, and they're always high when they are close.
|-|
Extreme demo: Load any cruise situation. Set night time, CAVOK. Engage HDG HOLD and ALT HOLD, and set time acceleration to x32. Go to Instructor > Situation > Human > Traffic and select "Start a semi-random preset". Hold the ALT key and click any Preset button. Watch the windshield ...
Motion blur might work in the movies or as an effect in some games, but for a simulator it really isn't much of use if your baseline is something like 20fps.
Just try it in real life, move your head from side to side and up and down, in a similar manner you would do if flying any civilian aircraft. Motion blur? :)
Motion blur in 3D engines is really just an effect, it is not something that should be added if trying to replicate a real-life situation. On top of that, you still have the judder from the low frame rate, even if the blur makes it a little less apparent.
Even in cinemas you can see that the frame rate is not completely "natural".
Or just compare PSX running at 72Hz to something like PMDG running at 18Hz. Everything in PSX feels a lot more smooth and "life-like", not just the displays but the whole flying experience. Of course there are many factors that make this difference happen, but one big thing in it is the much higher update rate of PSX.
Also, calculating motion blur is actually a heavy operation. Adding it as a kind of anti-aliasing will hit the frame rate even more if you are CPU-bound. Hardware assistance may work here.
Hoppie
Hi All,
Here's a new MSFS2020 trailer: https://youtu.be/BCBgO6St9ug
It even features our beloved Queenie ... and also nice cities in 4K:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HwLeJSAGc
information on home cockpit build support https://youtu.be/eLcSNppK14k (https://youtu.be/eLcSNppK14k)
Quote from: Mark on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:04
The simfest team are excited for FS2020 so I'm fairly confident that there will be a PSX-FS2020 bridge solution at release, or very soon after. ;)
That would be a real treat to have! Crossing fingers that it will happen!
Even better,
with the new Physics & Weather, if HH could create he's 744s as a native MFS add-on, that would look even better :-)
Quote from: jcomm on Sun, 15 Dec 2019 10:16
with the new Physics & Weather, if HH could create he's 744s as a native MFS add-on, that would look even better
Says the enthusiast without knowing the code, yet claiming a native MSFS 747 would be better.
Don't overlook that smiley: :-)
Quote from: Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 15 Dec 2019 12:08
Quote from: jcomm on Sun, 15 Dec 2019 10:16
with the new Physics & Weather, if HH could create he's 744s as a native MFS add-on, that would look even better
Says the enthusiast without knowing the code, yet claiming a native MSFS 747 would be better.
Was just a thought...
I really don't know what the new flight dynamics model and the new SDK will allow for. And.. of course I believe I understand the code in PSX is so complex that porting it to something compatible with MFS would be even more complex...
My problem was always getting PSX to run acceptably, for me, with external visual generators ( exception being Tellurium when used as a "moving-map" ). X-Plane, FSX and P3D have always made it difficult for me to accept the merge, and I always ended playing PSX stnadalone, even with all of it's "World Visuals" limitations.
I'm getting great results with PSX and P3D coupled via Gary's externalsim - best of both worlds - and I'm no techie. It took a fair amount of thought setting it up, but works almost flawlessly - the only issue is that I occasionally have to restart P3D as it fails to respond to the link, but PSX continues absolutely reliably while that happens, so I can continue to fly. That wouldn't be the case if they were combined. I have no doubt that Gary's team will continue to enhance the experience, either with P3D or MSFS2020.
If you're having any difficulty setting it up, I'm sure people on this forum will be only too happy to help.
M
Quote from: Martin B on Mon, 16 Dec 2019 14:04
I'm getting great results with PSX and P3D coupled via Gary's externalsim - best of both worlds - and I'm no techie. It took a fair amount of thought setting it up, but works almost flawlessly - the only issue is that I occasionally have to restart P3D as it fails to respond to the link, but PSX continues absolutely reliably while that happens, so I can continue to fly. That wouldn't be the case if they were combined. I have no doubt that Gary's team will continue to enhance the experience, either with P3D or MSFS2020.
If you're having any difficulty setting it up, I'm sure people on this forum will be only too happy to help.
M
Apart from some fancy effects we get in both XP and P3D versions, and I also used the P3D port to ELITE first as a beta tester and then as a user of the last version released recently and it has some of those effects too, my maisn problem is that in order to be able to profit from both worlds I would need to take the plunge and invest in at least a 2nd PC to run P3D or XP properly.
PSX always ran smooth as silk on my desktop - not the case with P3D, even with my rather conservative settings, like nill autogen and so on... If I has P3D running on a more up-2-date machine I am sure the results would be tempting.
Thanks for your answer anyway !
Fair point! I run P3D and one instance of PSX on one computer, both absolutely smooth, but have another 4 monitors connected to 2 Mac minis with another 4 instances of PSX. The more you invest in the hardware, the better the experience!
We will see what the future will bring. PSX and FS2020 together could well be combining the absolute best of both worlds. :)