Has anyone had any experience with this brand? The 8" of travel is definitely a selling point. The real aircraft has 8.4".
Jon.
http://www.flightlink.com/base-page/jet-rudder-control-module
(http://www.hoppie.nl/forum/var/jrcm.gif)
Im not sure how up to date the flight link company is. I remember these rudder pedals when they were released over 10 years ago now. I also see they are still advertising the epic interface system which I believe doesn't work with operating systems later than windows XP. I could be wrong of course, but I would definately try contacting them before making a solid decision.
I got the same impression. On their website there is a list of retailer addresses, and the Simware and Intercraft addresses displayed are several years old and no longer valid.
I received a reply back within hours and they forwarded my inquiries to someone in the company who could answer my questions. They said they still sell the rudders. Awaiting a reply. Based on the 8" throw, these would actually be better than the FDS rudders for about half the price. One of the most useful features of PSX is its ability to simulate a real engine out at V1, unlike any other program I have seen. The problem is that most of the rudders available have a short throw and they don't come anywhere near simulating what a real V1 cut is like. In the real sim, when you have 4" of rudder in and you move it 1/4" either way, you will see a significant change in yaw, roll and pitch. This one maneuver is probably responsible for more than half the busts on the -400 at my company. If you hit a pod, go off the side of the runway, or crash, your ride is over. And the V1 cut is almost always done with a 15-knot crosswind from the side of the failed engine, 500RVR, max landing weight, and max thrust (no de-rates).
Quote from: emerydc8 on Fri, 12 Oct 2018 00:22
If you hit a pod, go off the side of the runway, or crash, your ride is over. And the V1 cut is almost always done with a 15-knot crosswind from the side of the failed engine, 500RVR, max landing weight, and max thrust (no de-rates).
In Europe you will not be surprised to learn, Jon, that we take a more pragmatic approach. Cat 1 conditions with a defined cloudbase, usually 250 tonnes on 747, derated thrust and a realistic wind, without making it difficult. 15kts would be considered "unfair".
I fail to see how they could deliberately give you a wind from the side of the failed engine - that would be like telling you which engine was going to fail!
'Ride is over" is not a phrase that we would be familiar with. In my experience maybe 10% would have genuine difficulty with handling the engine fail - these pilots would be given further training (which would usually be in the same sim detail). Then a second attempt was allowed, and only if they failed this time, was the item recorded as a fail.
Peter.
On the V1 cut, if you are astute enough to recognize the combination of conditions, at least you know what to expect. It's been a while since I was on the -400 so maybe they're mixing it up now. I don't know why, but our -400 sim has a pretty violent engine failure characteristic. There's a violent pop, the airplane yaws and it's as if the engine is going from full forward thrust to reverse instantaneously. Under the conditions described above (full power, crosswind, fairly light), it initially takes full rudder to keep it on the runway centerline. When I say the "ride is over," I mean the ride is over for the day (you get pink-slipped) and then the company will decide whether to give you additional training before you try it again.
I think our training department prides itself on having the highest OPT (Optimized Proficiency Training) rate in the industry. I've heard it's close to 20%, but they won't give the union the figures. So, anyone who gets an overall unsat on any validation, or needs 50% more training at any phase, gets invited back to sim every 6 months instead of every year. Once in the OPT program, they warn the first officers not to even think about upgrading because the chances of making it through are really slim-to-none and you might very well find yourself without a job afterwards.
Hi Jon,
If you still haven't made your decision, I can recommend the pedals from MFG:
https://mfg.simundza.com/products
It's a small company and the shipment might take a while (up to 4 months!), but the pedals are of very high quality. The pedals work with a different technique than potentiometers which means that there are no spikes or other artifacts in the sim. The pedals also have a quite long travel distance. Don't know if it's more or lese than 8", but you have to push quite hard and move them considerably for full deflection.
Support is excellent and the pedals work fine in PSX.
Best regards,
Dirk
Thanks, Dirk. I haven't received a reply to my questions from Flightlink other than to send them money if I want to place an order, so I can't imagine what their support would be like. I worked out a deal with one of the forum members here for a home-made set that has the throw I am looking for. The PFC rudder throw is woefully inadequate and unrealistic, plus, I am tired of buying a set of springs every time I snap one. The rudders in the link look of high quality but it doesn't look like they have that much throw and they can't be adjusted vertically more than 62 degrees?
Jon
I also have the MFG pedals and confirm the high quality. They are adjustable in many ways.
Walter
They look really nice. Have you measured the throw on the rudders?
I measured the throw on the 767 rudders and it is right at 4.75" or 9.5" total from stop-to-stop. They look to be about 15-degrees from vertical. Based on the wear areas, it is evident that most braking is done with the balls of the feet on the top edges of the pedals and the heels on the bottom of the pedals. Most rudder input is done with the balls of the feet at the bottom of the pedals and heels on the floor. Having gone under there now to check it out, maybe I need to scuff up my new pedals so they have that 70,000-hour look. :)
(http://www.hoppie.nl/forum/var/img-20181126-00045(1).jpg)
Jon
Quote from: emerydc8 on Thu, 11 Oct 2018 05:47
Has anyone had any experience with this brand? The 8" of travel is definitely a selling point. The real aircraft has 8.4".
Jon.
http://www.flightlink.com/base-page/jet-rudder-control-module
(http://www.hoppie.nl/forum/var/jrcm.gif)
As usual, I'm coming late to the discussion. I have also been eyeing these rudder pedals for a quite a long time. When I spoke to them in the mid-2000's, they said that the design was per a Boeing order & spec. for use their engineering and training devices. At the time, my budget would not allow such a large expenditure.
Instead, in 2005 I purchased the Flight Link's rudder control module:
http://www.flightlink.com/base-page/rcm/
I've been quite pleased by its performance and ruggedness. In the 14 years I have had it, I had send it in only once for what was basically routine maintenance for replacement of the seals on the gas tubes. These rudders were purchased by the USN for use in their undergraduate pilot training desktop simulators at NAS Corpus Christi. There were also used in the simulators at the old the A.C.E.S Flight Simulator Store in the Mall of America, where they were subjected to daily "abuse" testing.
I have noticed that Flight Link has gotten quiet recently, with very little new products coming out. I have had some interest in the new Thrustmaster rudders:
http://www.thrustmaster.com/en_UK/products/tpr-thrustmaster-pendular-rudder
but not quite sure about them.
Flight Link was very good with the RCM that I have, and I would not hesitate to purchase from them again
Rich Boll
Wichita, KS
I had forgotten about these for six months. Maybe it's time to pull the trigger on getting a set. Thanks for the review, Rich. Has anyone purchased anything from this company in the recent past? I'm not sure if the company is even in business today.
Jon
I have also been looking for a realistic rudder, as well as a yoke to be used with PSX. I have emailed FlightLink a few years back and never got a reply, so I am not too keen on sending money to them. I have also not found any other pedals that would offer such a realistic travel, unfortunately. My current pedals from OpenCockpits have approximately 5.5inch travel. Being made of steel and the relatively strong spring force compenstates a little bit for the lack of travel, though.
The thrustmaster pedals seem like a set of typical gaming pedals: very short travel and not much feel to them.
I emailed them back in October 2018 asking some questions about the product, like how their rudders would interface with a PFC yoke. Their reply:
QuoteOur current lead time is 4-6 weeks. We build everything to order. Please let me know if you would like to place an order.
With a non-responsive reply like this, I'm not willing to send off money until I know more about the company and the product. I learned my lesson with the ThrottleTek.
Another sign that all may not be well with the company is that all the retail stores that used to sell their products seem to have removed them from their selections.
Has anyone had any experience with this company's products?
http://www.ifsim.com/b737-rudderpedal-15269807874512480.html
Jon
They look to be just a reseller of ACE flight controls out of Canada which is another company you want to avoid altogether.
Thanks!
You may want to look at https://www.virtual-fly.com/shop (https://www.virtual-fly.com/shop) for a set of (very expensive) pedals... Or one of the videos: https://www.virtual-fly.com/shop/controls/ruddo-step-on-for-real (https://www.virtual-fly.com/shop/controls/ruddo-step-on-for-real).
Brake travel seems small to me, though.
Regards,
Simon
Thanks, Simon. By the look of the design, these wouldn't even be close to reaching the 4.2" (8.4" total) rudder travel of the real plane that I'm looking for. Even FDS falls short at 2.7" (5.375" total). It's hard to find anything with that kind of travel, even on the high-end products.
Jon
Hello Jon
I just sent you email. Please check.
I am sorry for my disappearance. And I just found your post here.
Regards
Jack
Got it. Thanks, Jack!
Jon
It seems that the Flightlink website has shut down.
I guess there is not much hope now for an airliner style rudder pedals with realistic travel and feel...
The PFC Cirrus rudders I have do the job, but they are nowhere near the travel of the real airplane. That's the #1 problem on my sim I wish I could resolve. Probably the reason no one has bothered to mass produce a set like the real plane is that only PSX simulates what a real engine failure on the 744 is like. Those using FSX or a program that piggybacks onto FSX are only kidding themselves about the realism of an E/O -- It wouldn't matter what rudders they have because their software can't simulate a real engine out anyway.
Jon
https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-rudder-with-toe-brakes/
I found this one. Judging from the diagrams and their specification, these pedals would offer nearly 6" of travel to each direction ( around 12" total).
They look nothing like Boeing pedals though. :)
Thanks for posting. Looks interesting. I wonder if they've considered modifying their rudders for double the travel.
Does it really have to be double, I thought the real one has 8.4? We could ask them about a modified version for 744.
In any case these have the most travel I have managed to find so far. Perhaps not worth the upgrade for that price though.
From what I can tell from the dimensions, there is only about 6" between the pedals and the front edge of the unit, so it might interface well with my PFC Cirrus yoke. I'll have to investigate this further. Maybe it will be my first purchase for the sim in 2020. Thanks again for posting. I sent an email off to Brunner to see if they will work with PSX and whether the 5.9" throw is 11.8" stop-to-stop. It looks as if it is. That would be good news and well worth the price if the travel is what it looks to be and it works with PSX.
Jon
Jon,
I just want to make sure I understand and express everything correctly here:
You said the real 744 pedals have 8.4" of travel. Do you mean from full left rudder to full right rudder you get total of 8.4" of rudder pedal movement? Or 8.4" from center to either side?
I assumed it was from one extreme to the other at first, but I'm not sure anymore.
The Brunner one I posted a link of seems to offer 15cm (approx. 5.9 inches) from center to either side. So in total 11.8 inches if you move the rudder from one extreme to another. So it is either even more travel than the real 744, or a tad short?
I apologize if I did not understand something correctly. English is not my native language so there's always room for confusion.
Hi Antti,
When I first looked at the Brunner ad, I thought it was just 6" from stop-to-stop (3" from neutral), but it looks like it is nearly 12 from stop-to-stop. The 8.4" on the real 744 would be stop-to-stop, so the Brunner would actually be even more travel. If these will work with PSX, I intend to order them. Just waiting to hear back from customer service. Thanks for finding these and posting here. This would be a big step in getting my sim closer to the feel of the real airplane, especially with V1 cuts.
Jon
Just curious... I once read that the recommended technique as soon as you detect asymmetrical thrust, is to stamp on the good engine all the way and then reduce once the airplane responds?
Just trying to figure out why the travel of the pedals is so important. If you aim for, say, 2/3 travel into the good engine, I get that. If you stamp and then reduce, it should be less relevant?
Hoppie
It's not as simple as just stomping and reducing. You have to meter in whatever pressure and at whatever rate to keep it on the centerline based on thrust, weight and wind conditions, etc. It may be full, initially, but there is no mechanical one size fits all solution. The larger throw makes it more realistic because even at near max throw, reducing the pressure just a tad will cause significant pitch and roll changes that are not as evident when the throw is only a few inches.
In other words, the modulation of the rudder pedals requires significant nuance, just as yoke manipulation in pitch and bank, and you would not want a pitch travel of 2 inches, either.
Never having flown a heavy jet aircraft or (real) sim with proper instruction, I just completely miss any experience here.
I do remember the springy near-switch experience of a 172 during taxi... hello Simon :-P
Hoppie
QuoteIn other words, the modulation of the rudder pedals requires significant nuance, just as yoke manipulation in pitch and bank, and you would not want a pitch travel of 2 inches, either.
Exactly. With more rudder throw, it takes a lot more input to effect the same result. Additionally, when you're talking about having to push in 4 or 5 inches for an E/O, it gets your hamstrings involved and even your glutes, so it even affects how you're sitting in the seat at that moment. I'm hoping that rudder pedals with the same or more throw, like the Brunner, will make V1 cuts that much more difficult.
Best bet would be to talk to Art at Northern Flightsim. if you discuss your requirements I'm sure he would be able to design and build a suitable set of rudder pedal for you.
https://northernflightsim.com/
Ok, Jon, got it now!
I'm only glad if I was able to find something useful to share on this forum. Most of the time it's just me getting information from people like you.
Speaking of which, if it's not too much trouble please share here how your business went with Brunner. If the product is good I might consider it one day as well.
Thanks Gary. I should look into Northernflightsim too.
Here's the reply I received from Brunner. I'm afraid it raises more questions than answers. So, if I can't utilize the force feedback, will it work at all? Springs? I'm not even sure I can come up with an intelligent reply here.
Quotethanks for your inquiry and interest in our products.
unfortunately we did not test our products with Aerowinx PSK yet.
as far as i understand Aerowinx PSK it is an add-on for B744 flight deck simulation which is running on x-plane or P3D?
all our units are integrated with x-plane, P3D and MS FSX (FS2020 as well as soon as released). therefore if you use either x-plane or P3d for flightmodel and scenery there should not be an issue.
CLS2SIM SW https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls2sim-software/ ensured the interface to the sim SW as well all the parametrization and setup functions.
but we haven't done any tests with this SW at all therefore i can notclearly confirm compatibility...
the USB connection will work for sure but then you will miss the force feedback.
regarding travel range, the rudder offers 5.9" in total means +/- 3.95".
hope this helps.
kind regards
That's confusing... now they say that the total travel is 5.9"? This seems contradictory to their drawings... Or it would mean the pedals actually move only around half way along the "openings".
Regarding the force feedback, if it can be configured "passive" then it would just act like a dampening/centering force (much like the springs in standard pedal offerings) and would not necessarily need a specific connection to the sim. But none of this matters if the throw is that short.
Good thing you asked about it.
3.95 might be a typo and perhaps should read 2.95 which is the half of 5.9.
It seems the Brunner pedal wants to be fed with airspeed data for dynamic force feedback? Isn't that irrelevant for the 747? As we know, the 747 incorporates automatic rudder ratio changers. When the airspeed is increasing on an engine-out flight you can keep your rudder pedal deflection constant; the ratio changers will automatically decrease the rudder surface angle at the tail. In other words, to keep the aerodynamics in balance, the system will not force you to release your foot; instead, it just decreases the rudder surface angle. This avoids structural damages. Increasing force feedback is not required. It's the same with aileron control. No variable force feedback. Just the lockout of the outboard ailerons at higher speeds to prevent damage and to provide finer control. The elevator is the only control with a variable, computer controlled "force feedback".
Regards,
|-|ardy
2.95" wouldn't be much better than what I have now. Plus, having to deal with the feedback system that's not tested on PSX would be way over my head. I'm glad I inquired.
Jon
Jon-
FWIW I too use the PFC pedals. Started out Cirrus, upgraded to Jet Buckets, then upgraded again to Boeing. Now, I'm back to Cirrus as it's smaller size gives me the most (perceived) rudder travel and the easiest brake application in sim.
There are others as you have found, none better though, IMHO.
Hope you're well!
C
You may be right. I will have to get an email out to Northernflightsim. I'll also try to clarify the throw on the Brunner pedals to see if maybe it was a typo.
Jon
FWIW I have heard nothing but good things about Art at NorthernFlightSim.. do let us know what you find out. For my mix- 744 one day and an Annuschka the next, my Cirrus pedals do nicely. For a dedicated 744 sim they do have their shortcomings...
Best- C
Guys, not sure if this has been already discussed, but FDS offers replica (highly engineered) rudder pedals.
Will this not be a good solution (albeit, not sure about the price).w
https://flightdeck-solutions.myshopify.com/collections/b747/products/b747-pro-mx-series-rudder-pedals (https://flightdeck-solutions.myshopify.com/collections/b747/products/b747-pro-mx-series-rudder-pedals)
Cheers,
Thanks. Unless they've changed it since, as of a few years ago, this was the throw on the FDS rudder pedals.
Pedal Travel: +-2.6875" from neutral (5.375" total)
I have not realized that they are not replicating fully pedal travel. As what you have stated previously, it is quite important.
I will inquire later this week and I will advise.
Cheers,