Typerating question

[ASCTU744]

Have any of you, on any commercial airline TR, been required to fly a raw-date holding pattern? Maybe the 747 classic? But I cant imagine you'd have to do that on an FMC equipped yet right😅 unless the IP hates you

[Bluestar]

I did on my DC-3 ride.  🤣

[ASCTU744]

I did on my DC-3 ride.  🤣

XD

[Mariano]

No. The only raw data maneuvers we do at our company are steep turns and a full (takeoff to landing) visual pattern every six months.

Every two years, we do upset recovery training during which we do a few more raw data maneuvers such as high altitude slow flight (climbing, descending, and turning), and a couple of others that I cannot recall at this time (perhaps for a reason... ;-)

Regards,

Mariano

[ASCTU744]

No. The only raw data maneuvers we do at our company are steep turns and a full (takeoff to landing) visual pattern every six months.

Every two years, we do upset recovery training during which we do a few more raw data maneuvers such as high altitude slow flight (climbing, descending, and turning), and a couple of others that I cannot recall at this time (perhaps for a reason... ;-)

Regards,

Mariano

  thank God, that sounds reasonable. I read a story about a poor guy, struggling with handflying the a320 and having to perform a raw holding in the sim during his TR😬😅..... (https://www.pprune.org/questions/603543-a320-manual-flying-help.html)

[Captain_al]

No,definitely not normal examiner protocol. He may have had indications his hand flying skills were not up to par, so maybe the examiner gave him that to see how he would hand fly while also having to think with the holding pattern entry while turning and maybe slowing for the entry. Certainly if he suspects a weak area, he can deviate his plan and incorporate a scenario that attempts to challenge that suspicion.

[ASCTU744]

No,definitely not normal examiner protocol. He may have had indications his hand flying skills were not up to par, so maybe the examiner gave him that to see how he would hand fly while also having to think with the holding pattern entry while turning and maybe slowing for the entry. Certainly if he suspects a weak area, he can deviate his plan and incorporate a scenario that attempts to challenge that suspicion.

Ah that makes sense. Poor student though, that IP gave him one of the hardest tasks while he was struggling😅

[Jamie]

Have any of you, on any commercial airline TR, been required to fly a raw-date holding pattern? Maybe the 747 classic? But I cant imagine you'd have to do that on an FMC equipped yet right😅 unless the IP hates you

No, but touch and go's circuits are very popular. We sim 4 times a year and every session contains loads of manual flying. Raw data if you want. Otherwise, no, there's no practical benefit to practising that. Waste of time :-)

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

From the other side, if you are on descent and contact the first approach controller stating that your FMS is out and you're on half-auto (MCP only, no FMS), would they even consider putting you in a hold?

[ASCTU744]

No, but touch and go's circuits are very popular. We sim 4 times a year and every session contains loads of manual flying. Raw data if you want. Otherwise, no, there's no practical benefit to practising that. Waste of time :-)

Touch and go's and patterns seem useful, but I'm glad they skip raw holdings😁 It'd be like having to navigate by the stars in this day and age XD

[ASCTU744]

From the other side, if you are on descent and contact the first approach controller stating that your FMS is out and you're on half-auto (MCP only, no FMS), would they even consider putting you in a hold?

I highly doubt it, losing two FMC's is basically an emergency. The fact that the A/T requires atleast one FMC shows you how integrated it has become to normal ops.

[Bluestar]

When playing "you bet your job" this was a deal breaker for some.  It was a night, circling approach into PANC.  The scenario was an ILS to one of the 7's, circle to land 33.  Three engines, at night, circling minimums, and base was downwind.  Just raw data and no AP. 

I had a personal rule from my military days that I didn't fly night circling approaches at night when base was downwind.

[ASCTU744]

When playing "you bet your job" this was a deal breaker for some.  It was a night, circling approach into PANC.  The scenario was an ILS to one of the 7's, circle to land 33.  Three engines, at night, circling minimums, and base was downwind.  Just raw data and no AP. 

I had a personal rule from my military days that I didn't fly night circling approaches at night when base was downwind.

That sounds tough, but Im gonna have to try that now in PSX   what did you fly in the mil?

[Hardy Heinlin]

... and base was downwind.

You mean it was a right downwind? I can't remember the word pair "downwind base" (maybe it's an FAA term) but I know right downwind and left downwind, and right base and left base. After the downwind there is the base. Left turns are easier than right turns when sitting in the left seat. That's why I assume "base on downwind" means "right base", as you mentioned the additional difficulty :-)

I think practising raw data holds in level-D sims is too expensive. For such purposes PSX provides a much better cost-effectiveness :-)


|-|ardy

[Bluestar]

You mean it was a right downwind? I can't remember the word pair "downwind base" (maybe it's an FAA term) but I know right downwind and left downwind, and right base and left base. After the downwind there is the base. Left turns are easier than right turns when sitting in the left seat. That's why I assume "base on downwind" means "right base", as you mentioned the additional difficulty :-)

I think practising raw data holds in level-D sims is too expensive. For such purposes PSX provides a much better cost-effectiveness :-)


|-|ardy

When referring to "base was downwind", this means that the base leg, in this case left base has a tailwind.  The landing will be a crosswind landing. 

[Hardy Heinlin]

Ah, I see. Thanks :-)