Hand Flying

[Alex268]

Hey guys,

I am new to the forum and recently purchased this amazing training aid along with the NG FMC. Thank you for creating such a detailed simulation.

I will be doing my real 747 type rating next month in the left seat and I have been using the PMDG for many years, but I find this to be much better.

I was hoping someone can help me if possible to figure out the hand flying. I have calibrated my boeing yoke and Thrust levers using max and min values etc. However, when I am hand flying, it seems a bit delayed or "sloppy". So with that, I find myself almost constantly over correcting wing rocking etc, instead of smaller control inputs to maintain my flight path. Is there a setting or a better way to calibrate the controls to get a better hand flying experience?

I know this has probably been posted before but if someone can help or point me to the right thread, I would really appreciate that. I'm looking forward to flying the real Queen soon

Alex

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

First: make sure that when you move the controls (switch motion off for the moment), you see the simulator input control display at the top-left moving like you move your controls. Same direction, same input, especially same max range. These indicators are your calibration target -- not the EICAS control surface deflection displays (too many things that will influence them after control input).

If your input control displays are correct, let her fly straight and level and then play around a bit while watching the frame refresh indicator at the top-left. They need to be relatively constant, no huge jumps. If they are constant, the flight model has proper time samples to work with and will reliably and smoothly predict the future.

Once these things are all straightened out, it becomes a matter of learning to fly the sim, as usual. She's very good, but not the real thing   :-)


Hoppie

[Alex268]

Thank you for the quick response. I will do as you have mentioned and see how it goes.  So just to know what to expect, once I do as mentioned, it should handle similar to how the aircrafts in P3D, MSFS etc should handle?

Alex

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Alex,

I don't know how the aircraft in other sims behave. The flight behaviour you get in PSX is an evolving compromise of different opinions of countless 744 pilots, captains and training captains that were involved in the past 25 years. It's an evolution at a very high peak now, with lots of details in the aerodynamic effects. However, the compromise can never be perfect because every hardware feels different, and the expectations regarding the scenery geometry is particularly subjective, therefore the flight model should always be evaluated using the instruments only.

As Hoppie wrote, check the info tag in the upper left corner. The tag should not indicate max deflection before your hardware is max deflected.

Also, for the elevator there's a bias adjustment on Instructor > Preferences > Basics.


Welcome to the forum!


|-|ardy

[Gary Oliver]

If it helps - several real world 744 pilots have got into my simulator (with real flight controls) and fly it perfectly.  Those who have never flown a 744 get into lots of PIO on approach...

I'd suggest PSX is as close to the real 744 feel as you can get (aka not like other simulators)

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

It probably is worth adding that PSX has items in the flight model, such as ground effect, that likely are less pronounced or missing in the more hobby-oriented heavy Cessnas of the mainstream simulators.


Hoppie

[Alex268]

Thank you Hardy, it's a pleasure to "meet" you. I will jump on it in a while and ensure that all is correct. I have been trying to figure out a nice scenery setup using either wasm or ill try xview also, but as of now, I think I just prefer the standalone sim. Can't get the ratios correct, feels like it's moving to fast over the ground etc.

I'll be going to do my rating next month, so if there is anything you guys need from me (I'm sure you already have all that you need but), please do not hesitate to be in touch. I will try to be as helpful as I can. I was a Line trainer and sim instructor for the past few years on the 737, really looking forward to the 744.

[Alex268]

Hi Hardy,

So upon checking the tab in the top left corner, the tab maxes out but my Boeing thrustmeter yoke still has another inch or so before fully deflected. It moves at the exact same time as the tab which is good, but once the tab reaches max, I still have a little play. I have calibrated it in preferences to determine max deflection but its still the same. Is this ok or is there another step to take now?

Alex

[Britjet]

Alex - congratulations on your conversion!

I use an ACE yoke on my 747 sim. It's a heavy, springy piece of kit but I find that by reducing the effective travel of the control to artificial pitch limits using calibration I can make the central 3 or 4 inches of travel much more responsive, and reducing the spring effect.

I wouldn't worry about including full travel on your yoke - it's wasted. What you want is a much more positive pitch effect with slight control movements.

Varying the sensitivity of the yoke in pitch makes a huge difference.
You can do this on the PSX Preferences Tab 'USB Elevator bias". Play with that setting until you feel that a slight control movement produces a similarly pitch change, without the pitch "running away".You would probably expect to be in the range +20 to -20.

The wing-rocking is typical of sim joysticks, I think. Consider expanding your dead zone in that respect.

At the moment I feel PSX is a little active on Dutch roll - you might find that if you try crosswind landings. Also I feel the Pitch-Power couple is a little too strong, noticeable as power is reduced in the flare, from my memory, but I hesitate to correct it now despite calibrating with Hardy several years ago, as my experience is now very much historic!

Good luck with your rating, and please keep giving feedback here on how you compare  PSX with the real thing!

Peter
(AKA Britjet)

[Hardy Heinlin]

Alex, this explains why your aileron response is oversensitive.

Obviously, your USB axis isn't calibrated correctly.

Did you exactly follow the calibration steps described in this tutorial?

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php/topic,4805.0.html

What max values do you see on the calibration page and what max values did you enter?


|-|ardy


Edit: I posted this before I saw Peter's comment.

[Alex268]

Thanks again Peter and Hardy. The values are at 1,000. But as you said, I'll play around with it. I'm sure I'll get the hang of it with some practice.

[Hardy Heinlin]

At the moment I feel PSX is a little active on Dutch roll - you might find that if you try crosswind landings. Also I feel the Pitch-Power couple is a little too strong

Hi Peter,

I'm working on the next PSX update, and I'd like to check if I can fine-tune the above effects a little bit.

If you take a situation in stable level flight at flap 20, gear down, 5000 feet, 300 tons -- manual control --, hands off the yoke, and you set the thrust to idle to get a nose-down pitch movement, what pitch rate would you expect on the real 744? In PSX I'm getting about 1° per second average. It's a smooth pitch change by 5°; i.e. the nose drop stops when 5° have passed. And the whole process takes about 5 seconds.

By how many per cent would you reduce this effect?

Vice versa, the pitch-up effect when thrust is added, that I don't want to modify; it works so nicely for go-around training, when you forget to watch the rising pitch attitude while takeoff thrust is set, and you eventually get surprised by the stick shaker :-)

Can you be more specific regarding Dutch roll? Do you mean that rudder deflections induce too much bank? By how many per cent would you reduce this effect?


Thank you,

|-|ardy

[Britjet]

Hi Hardy,

I'll try when I get a moment - life is getting in the way a little bit, but I would say as before that the nose-down pitch as power is reduced for the flare is too much. I always seem to have to "rescue" it. That would of course imply that the pitch-power couple in the downwards direction might be too much. I think so?

Those using Boeing jets on MSFS etc - particularly the PMDG series such as the yet, should be familiar with a tendency for slight node-drop as thrust is reduced in the flare. It should feel the same.


I completely agree with your pitch-up couple discussion - it should be quite severe, as it is on all jets with low-slung engines.

The roll couple on yawed landings when applying rudder to align with the runway, for me, gives aggressive roll moment, as though the roll damping is too small. I have always been wary of crosswind landings in PSX, I've thought that may just be my visual display, but in fact it seems to be problematic even using instruments only.
If I was to quantify this effect, for me, I might say it is 100% overdone?

As always this stuff is related to individual pedal inputs - everyone has different controls, of course!

I hope this helps - it been a long time now since I flew, but still enjoying PSX!

Perhaps our few remaining rw 747 pilots can comment?

Peter

[Hardy Heinlin]

100% overdone?

Hi Peter, thank you for your feedback.

100% overdone? That means the 744 has no swept wings? :-)

In your previous post you wrote: "PSX is a little active on Dutch roll".

Little = 100% overdone?

Or does "100%" mean the effect in PSX is twice as big as in real life, i.e. I should reduce it by 50%?

My references are my tests in the Lufthansa sims; there was clearly a swept-wing effect when kicking the rudders or when the thrust was asymmetric. If I were to eliminate this effect entirely, engine-out scenarios would keep wings level. This cannot be your goal :-) There must be a misunderstanding somewhere ... or a typo ... :-)

I recall, some years ago you sent me a video where you tested 2 E/O in cruise in a BA sim; all trimmed, manual flight, hands off, bang, 2 E/O on one side and then watch the roll behaviour. I fine-tuned PSX so much that it agrees 100% with that BA video. So, if the roll behaviour is now exaggerated in PSX, it was exaggerated in the BA sims as well.


|-|ardy

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Me not pilot. Not even close.

What is it that makes real pilots aware of these fine tendencies of varous airplane types? Is it 20 years of flying the things for 10,000 hours in all possible circumstances, and being 100% on top of every single move of your controls? Is it your instructors on the type(s) that pointed out the tendencies? Is it "ow sh*t" moments that you accumulated? Is it watching other pilots fly so you could be at one level above them instead of "in it"?


Hoppie

[Will]

Hoppie, great question. I think it's a combination of things, and probably different for everyone. There's the overlay of the "dogma," which you get from manuals and instructors. Below that, there's the "user experience," which is subjective and idiosyncratic (and, interestingly, unreliable at times).

In general, I don't think you need 10,000 hours in type to get a good feel for how an aircraft handles, although that may be different in long-haul ops where only a tiny percentage of flight hours are actually spent flying the aircraft by hand in meaningful regimes.

[Bluestar]

Me not pilot. Not even close.

What is it that makes real pilots aware of these fine tendencies of varous airplane types? Is it 20 years of flying the things for 10,000 hours in all possible circumstances, and being 100% on top of every single move of your controls? Is it your instructors on the type(s) that pointed out the tendencies? Is it "ow sh*t" moments that you accumulated? Is it watching other pilots fly so you could be at one level above them instead of "in it"?


Hoppie

For me it is all about feel I get from the flight controls and in the seat of my pants.  I was trained in the military and got my commercial license in 1967 (I'm old).  The last couple of years I've been able to log almost 20 hours in a B737-8 Max (a $25 million sim). The Max hand felt like all the big Boeings I've flown either in a level-d sim or the actual aircraft. 

The Max handles really nice when hand flown with no bad habits (unlike the DC-3).  It is predictable in a strong crosswind.  Go arounds are smooth with the nose pitching up slightly when going to full power (it is powerful).  To me the Max and the Aerowinx B744 ("B744")should have similar flight tendencies (both '60s technology). 

The B744 flies Ok manually. I normally fly manually up to FL280 unless I'm having to deal with Vatsim ATC .  Where I think the B744 needs improvement is during the landing phase of flight.  When on final and the A/P is dico'd the nose tends to drop.  When the A/P is flying the aircraft it should be in perfect trim and no control input necessary when transitioning to manual flight. My biggest complaint is when in ground effect, it is not very stable and this should be the most stable portion of the landing even in calm winds.  It is not unusual to have a wing drop at ten feet.  The real airplane is better than that.  It's kinda like the DC-3 for me, unpredictable.  One thing I do that most folks may not be doing is I'm normally landing at close to MGLW of 666,000 lbs.   

[Hardy Heinlin]

When the A/P is flying the aircraft it should be in perfect trim and no control input necessary when transitioning to manual flight.

Do you disengage the autothrottle as well? (You should, on the 744.)

And is your hardware yoke perfectly centered when disengaging the A/P? Remember that the A/P in PSX doesn't move your hardware yoke unless you connect PSX to an external servo mechanism.

It is not unusual to have a wing drop at ten feet.

You mean when you yaw the aircraft with your rudder pedals during landing, it rolls too much? The same what Peter says?

If so, how much would you reduce this roll effect? Reduce by 100% would mean that there are no swept wings and no roll effect at all, which is obviously unrealistic. Should it be half as much? That would be a reduction by 50%.


|-|ardy

[Britjet]

FWIW I don't get any pitch change when I disconnect the AP.
As Hardy says, this is probably down to control centering.

Hardy - with regard to the Dutch roll - I would say that the induced roll rate in the flare is too much by a factor of about 2 - is that the same as saying 100%?

The nose-drop when thrust is reduced in the flare - again, too rapid, maybe.
The eventual nose-drop in free air might be quite large were it allowed to continue, but the rate at which it happens always seems to catch me out

[Hardy Heinlin]

OK, I shall reduce the induced roll rate by 50%. That makes more sense than reducing it by 100% :-)

Should the ground effect be the cause for the reduced roll rate?

I'll also reduce the nose drop rate a little bit.

So it's all about rates, not target attitudes.