malfunctions flap disagree bug?

[Oscar744]

hello, when i select the flap disagree TE outbd R severe no motion mulfunction, both TE outbd R and L fail, same for the TE inbd, is this correct? i am traying to create an asymmetry situ.

thank you.
Oscar.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Oscar,

it's not a bug. Only LE groups can become asymmetric. TE groups cannot as they are mechanically linked across the wings (see Aerowinx manual, page 279).

If TE flaps were able to extend just on one wing, it would be a disaster; the smaller ailerons and spoilers couldn't compensate for such a great asymmetry.

You can get an asymmetry by activating the malfunction "Flap disagree - LE" in severe mode.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Oscar744]

thank you Hardy.

[Oscar744]

Hardy can i fail an EEC?, and
I like to do the non-normal GEAR LEVER WILL NOT MOVE UP, EICAS messages GEAR TILT BODY GEAR STRG how can i create this situ?

Please see videos https://youtu.be/7Wjmv4bPEeE https://youtu.be/tTvD_m5CrXE
Thank you.
Oscar

[Hardy Heinlin]

In PSX 10.168 (not uploaded yet) there are new EEC malfunctions.
In previous versions you can pull CBs on P6 if you use PW or RR engine models:
H19 for EEC 1
H21 for EEC 2
H23 for EEC 3
H25 for EEC 4


To lock the gear lever below the UP position in flight, pull one of the following CBs on P7:
F22
F23
F24


"GEAR TILT" malfunctions are not modeled (see Aerowinx manual, page 491).


"BODY GEAR STRG" advisory and "BODY GR STRG SYS" status message will occur when G23 is pulled (on P7), and G24 is powered, and the nose gear steering angle is >28.5°, and HYD SYS 1 is powered.


|-|ardy

[Oscar744]

thank you Hardy.

[Captain_al]

While Opposite Trailing Edge Flap Groups are mechanically connected to maintain symmetry, the primary protection for a Trailing Edge Flap Asymmetry comes from the Flap Control Units. If a TE Flap Asymmetry is detected, the primary and secondary mode will shut down the Flap Drive Units and you get the Flaps Drive message. The affected TE Flap Group and its opposite mate are shut down. All other Flap Groups will operate normally. Then you have a speed additive to use with a F25 Landing. There is a big warning not to use the ALTN mode because Asymmetric and Uncommanded Motion Protection are not provided in Alternate. I am assuming that if you did try to drive the Flaps in ALTN, that would put a force on the mechanical connection, which appears to me to be the fail safe backup to the Flap Control Units, of which you have 3 of them. So, if you want to simulate an asymmetry, just do a SVR failure on the Flap Disagree that gives you the Flaps Drive Message. In the simulator, when you give a Flap Asymmetry, you will see a split between the inboard or outboard trailing edge flaps with them turning amber.

[Hardy Heinlin]

So can the big sim model really break the mechanical link and allow maximum TE asymmetry? If so, have you tried such a maximum TE asymmetry? If so, at what point can your ailerons and rudders no longer maintain a stable attitude?

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

It _may_ be merely a sensor malfunction that does not lead to control problems, but surely will put the pilots heads-down in a technically important procedure. Perfect as a distraction for something more "interesting."

[Captain_al]

In the sim, you just see a small split with the asymmetry because the drives are shut down and the FCU's did their job. I do not know the answer to what would happen if you did try to operate the ALTN mode with an asymmetric condition. My guess is the mechanical link is the fail safe that would prevent a catastrophic asymmetry, but driving in ALTN would put undue strain on that linkage holding. But, I really have no clue for sure...

[Hardy Heinlin]

What do you mean by "split" on the flap symbols?

[John H Watson]

I assume this means on the expanded flap display

Signals from the flap transmission, position RVDTs are monitored in
the FCUs. The left inboard is compared to the right inboard flap
position and likewise the left outboard flap position is compared to
the right outboard. If the difference between left and right;
• Exceeds 6.2 percent of full travel for the inboard flaps, the system
is shutdown after 0.1 second.
• Exceeds 3.4 percent of full travel for the outboard flaps, the
system is shutdown after 0.1 second.
To accomplish the shutdown the FCU signals the bypass valve to
close, or By-Pass position, and stop further flap movement.
NOTE: An asymmetry fault also inhibits primary electric mode
operation for the affected system.

I wonder how travel is defined. The number of turns on the worm drives? (where the position sensors are)

How linear is the display after 1 unit of flaps?

[Hardy Heinlin]

Oh! I just refreshed my memory: PSX can set asymmetric TE flaps -- in ALTN mode :-)

It will break the mechanical link.

The asymmetry will increase and the ailerons eventually cannot maintain wings level anymore.


|-|ardy

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

So those long cross-hull torque tubes are not intended to keep the flaps synchronized when they are driven by one side of the motors in a single-side-out situation (they will break under the stress) but only used to assure that both sides remain exactly in sync? As sort of mechanical position fuses, backed up by electronic position sensors that detect the "fuse" snapped?


Hoppie

[Hardy Heinlin]

No, I don't think the mechanical link will break on the real aircraft under "normal" conditions. PSX turns it into a "non-normal" scenario so that it can break it and demonstrate a TE asymmetry.


|-|ardy

[John H Watson]

There are torque limiters at the end of the drive shafts (flap end) which lock up if there are jams on one flap assembly and this stalls the hydraulic motors.

[Hardy Heinlin]

... this stalls the hydraulic motors.

But in ALTN mode we're on electric drives ...

[John H Watson]

But in ALTN mode we're on electric drives ...

ah... I thought you meant initially when the flaps are in hydraulic mode. The mechanical bits are very confusing. It's not clear how the electric drive and the hydraulic drive are linked. There is a clutch and a frangible quill shaft in there, somewhere.

The hydraulic drive and electric drive seem to be at right angles to each other, but doesn't show the interlinking gearing.



Here's the weakest link, but what is being linked, I'm not sure.



Here's the clutch



In your assymmetry scenario, has the drive shaft(torque tube) broken on one side or jammed on one side?

[Hardy Heinlin]

So on either side of the wings there is an hydraulic drive and an electric drive both connected by a clutch.
But where are the two ends of that long link across the wings connected to?
Are they connected to the hydraulic drives or to the electric drives?

In my extreme PSX scenario, the opposite side gets no hydraulic and no electric actuation. Depending on where the connection is, I could just say the clutch doesn't provide any friction anymore :-) (Instead of saying the link is broken into pieces.)

[John H Watson]

So on either side of the wings there is an hydraulic drive and an electric drive both connected by a clutch.

No, there is a single combined hydraulic/electric power control module in one of the wheel wells for inboard flaps (and in the other wheel well, the same setup for the outboard flaps).




The rigid torque tube goes through each power control module to both wings.

The pictures in the earlier post don't show the "barber pole" torque tube running throught the power control modules, but they do.