Network Switch

[samer747]

Hello Pilots,

I want to ask about the network switch, whats the ideal network switch for running the simulator components including interface cards, computers (managed or unmanaged), any specific models you recommend from your experience.

Thanks for any inputs as I'm still in the network learning curve.

Best Regards,
Sam

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

If you talk about the Ethernet level network, it does not really matter. Ethernet is reliable and most equipment does IP properly. Don't go for extensive routing and firewall and proxy and other "managed" or "security" capabilities -- you want a switch, period.

There is also a "switch" or "router" that works at the PSX protocol level, which is a software program that many people use to decouple their PSX server from the clients, so that a malfunctioning client or a client out on the internet has no ability to break the server. Such a PSX-level switch offers several options to make life easier on an extensive multicomputer home cockpit simulator network setup.

Hoppie

[Takayoshi Sasano]

Right, any ethernet switch should work. I'd keep in mind though that the cheap switches are not meant to run 24/7 or integrate well into a more complex network infrastructure. I had funny experiences with that type of switches in the past.
Please correct me if I'm wrong - but I'd look for a classic layer 2 switch with good energy footprint. I didn't do any measurements yet, but probably even an old (HP, Cisco) 100Mbit/s switch would do.

Cheers

Yoshi

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Yes. That by the way holds for all equipment in a sim. Many sim builders learned the hard way that if you don't build your sim like you would build an airplane, you call out all kinds of gremlins in terms of reliability and ease of maintenance. You don't need airworthy parts because you won't kill anybody if your USB hub packs up, but you curse a lot. And if you cannot get at it, you curse more. And if you cannot replace it because it has been wired in and soldered in and what not...

USB in itself turned out to be a no-no if you can avoid it... hence the move to Ethernet, which is a whole lot more reliable.

If you buy the right equipment and cables. No plastic enclosures...

[asboyd]

I have several "cheap" ethernet gigabit switches that run my household and are on 24 hours a day 7 days a week. (Touch wood) they have been working for around 8-10 years now without any issues.
I think the newer items (for the general public consumption) are more resilient so long as you shut them down during electrical storms or have them on filtered power. I also have higher end "professional switches" up to 20 gigabit capable, but they consume a lot of power and generate a lot more heat. (They also cost an arm and a leg).

Buy a good brand and they should work as you want.

Cheers,
AlexB

[samer747]

Thanks alot for the information, I'm planning on buying a good reliable switch, I've been doing lots of reading and planning as it is a very learning curve for me, some stuff I understand and other stuff I freeze but hopefully i will get there someday, especially I'm at the point where I need to start the interfacing and networking part of the simulator build.
I also need to figure out what computers I need to get, like what specifications, can I do the job with one super computer or multiple smaller ones, running PSX server and clients, interface cards mainly before I get to sciences.

I do appreciate all of your inputs and thoughts in helping me planning this project, I'm sure I'm going to have tons of questions

Cheers,
Sam

[Takayoshi Sasano]

Hey Sam,

we're all kind of in the same boat I guess
Maybe this will help you a bit or at least get some more ideas.
I decided to build a homecockpit almost 20 years ago, but I never got past the planning/researching stage until now. With PSX things have changed significantly because for the first time everything seems to come together:
- favourite aircraft that *very* unlikely will get boring within the next 30 years
- professional level simulation of the aircraft systems
- great community sharing an incredible amount of knowledge in a supportive attitude that is hard to find nowadays
- a simulation that is built having hardware interfacing available

My current setup:
Flightsimulation PC, running XP11/XP12/MSFS and PSX
Tools PC, running Simtoolkit Pro, Volanta, Navigraph Charts and the like

This setup won't change anytime soon but will be extended step by step. Most important thing (I read that many years ago and never forgot this advice): always have your rig ready to fly. If you can't fly you'll get frustrated in no time and chances are high you even lose motivation fixing things to get up in the virtual skies again.

My next step(s):
After stumbling across a thread started by Jeroen I decided to start some tests using an old Raspberry Pi to get the first hardware switches connected to PSX.
I already realised I have to get into programming, didn't decide which language could be my weapon of choice yet.

So - back to your post:
You can run PSX and hardware interfacing on the same PC without problem. If you want to grow your project it's very likely you will have to split tasks across systems (external visuals, interface module(s) for overhead/main instrument panel, CDU(s) etc.).
Be sure to have a look at SimStack as well since they seem to be very well thought out/made.

And please keep at least me posted about progress 

Cheers

Yoshi

[samer747]

Hey Yoshi,
That was a great feed back, thanks

My project was a full size flight deck and after 5 years or so the flight deck is complete with all original parts except cdu's and MCP, full overhead, p8 panel and pedestal, capt and f/o MIP with LCDs ready to go.
My background is in aviation system engineering (maintenance) and flying but my fear is software and interfacing,
It's a big project but it will be rewarding once it's done.

My plan is to interface using simsolutions, will interface basic main systems and flight controls first and expand interfacing later slowly, but I need to figure the computing hardware that I need to get PSX and interfacing boards working before I get to scenery which will have dedicated computer to run it.

It helps when we get some feed back or hints from the experts who had been through this phase, like you said everyone here on this forum is helpful and I appreciate them a lot.

Cheers,
Sam

[B747-400]

Hi Sam,

I understand your "fears" ver well. My weak point are electronics. Two years ago I would never have thought that I would be where I am today: all my HW is connected, up and running! So, go on step by step. As you mentioned: start with simple things, learn and proceed to the next (more demanding) step.

SimStack is an excellent technology to connect with genuine HW. They work more or less like arduino, and need some coding knowledge. Once you got it, it's a straight forward process, and you can connect all parts of your pit. PSX and SimStack won't need high end PCs. I'm using (in the meantime older) Barebone Slim PCs, and they do their job very well.

Just my 2 cent.

Best regards
Hans

[samer747]

Hi Hans,

I just wanted to make sure that I will start on the right track and progress as I go, I never had done coding before but I will try to figure this out and for sure any feed back, hints, tips...etc from you guys will definitely help until I become more confident coding. I personally admire all of your work and been following on your progress and really really you've done a great job Hans

Now a small question, what determines how many computers I need to interface my hardware to PSX not counting the visuals, I'm planning a dedicated computer to run scenery, just for simstacks and PSX is there a limit of  board numbers that can be handled by one computer? same for the number of PSX instances opened to cover all cdu's ND's, PFD's?

Cheers,
Sam

[B747-400]

Hi Sam,

connecting your HW does not need even one dedicated computer. You connect all your panel backlightings, knobs, buttons, flightcontrols, solenoids etc. directly to the SimStack boards. Available boards and their specs are listed on Simulator Solutions website.

On one computer, you need two SW packages:
- Loader, to develop, compile and upload your code to the boards
- Switch, is the link btw. the boards and PSX

In my case, PSX server, MSFS, Loader and Switch are running on the same high end PC. No troubles here. Loader does not need to run while you fly. You only need it to code / compile.

All the boards connect via Ethernet. How many boards you need depends on the number of input / output terminals you need to connect all your HW.

I'm Running 11 Foundation boards, lot of additional Input / Output boards, one ARINC board and some other minor stuff like BuckBoost converter, H-Bridges, Soundboard etc.

I hope that gives you an idea and little help to start with your plannings. Most important: go to the Simulator Solutions website and study thoroughly their boards.

Cheers
Hans

[samer747]

Thanks Hans and everyone, that was very helpful, I'm in the process of getting some hardware for the sim, I will keep you updated with the progress and I'm sure I will have more questions down the road

Cheers,
Sam

[samer747]

can someone clarify please, my understanding from previous posts that managed or unmanaged Ethernet switch can do the job networking the hardware with PSX, I purchased the netgear GS324v2 unmanaged switch however simstack boards need an assigned IP address to manage codes and uploads (correct me if I'm wrong) but using the switch I got I'm unable to config the ports or assign IP address. Networking and coding are very new path to me I'm very basic for now, that's why I was asking for help on what type switch I should get.  Please let know if I can still use this switch with PSX and simstack boards or I should get something else.

Thankx

[Takayoshi Sasano]

A network switch does not assign IP addresses to devices, this is done by a DHCP server (or manual configuration on the devices). Nowadays almost every router already offers DHCP service, so you shouldn't have to worry about that if you hook up the switch to a port of your router.

Cheers

Yoshi

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

In addition to Yoshi's post, which is entirely correct:

Every end point (such as a computer or a SimStack card) on the Ethernet network needs an IP address if it wants to be connected to.

There are two ways to give an end point an IP address.

1. By setting it hard into the end point. This is called a static address.
2. By hoping that there is something listening out on the network that is able to give you an address that nobody else has.

This second method is more common and this magic device listening out for cries for help is the DHCP server. It keeps a table handy with a pool of addresses it can hand out, and it listens to requests for a handout.

I don't know which method SimStack boards use. If static, then you would need to know this in order to connect to them to change it, or you should run a special program that can do this. If dynamic, then you need a DHCP server running somewhere on your network.

The switch you bought possibly can do DHCP services, but it is not a hard requirement in most cases as long as you can manually assign different static IP addresses to each end point. And as Yoshi said there is a big fat chance that there is already something else on your network, such as your internet router, that does DHCP. You cannot have more  than one DHCP server, else they would fight.

I'm sure the SimStack guys who listen out on this forum will help out. Sort of DHCP service  :-)


Hoppie


EDIT

SimStack themselves have the answer:
https://simulatorsolutions.com.au/frequently-asked-questions/

SimStack IP addresses & Networking

All SimStack Foundation Boards require the manual assignment of a unique IPv4 IP Address. All SimStack hardware and software must reside in the same IP subnet to ensure effective communication between SimStack Hardware and SimStack software.

Incorrectly configured computer networks will result in difficulty using SimStack products.

So there must be a piece of software or other standard way to access these boards and set their IP address.  I am not sure but by their web site, it may be the SimStack Switch software (that is not your network switch) that can do this for you.

[samer747]

Thanks hoppie/ yoshi,
I think I can still use this switch, but I need to do more reading about networking, as I'm still new to this.

Cheers and happy new year to you all

Sam

[Takayoshi Sasano]

Hi Sam,

just as a suggestion as Hoppie shared SimStack requires static IP address configuration.

Usually all consumer routers offer DHCP service, so if you plan to use devices with static IP addresses you have to take care of some pitfalls.

Example network:
The router connects the internal network (LAN) to the internet (WAN), here in Germany mostly DSL. The addresses in the LAN are managed by DHCP, the available addresses are:
192.168.1.2 up to 192.168.1.254 where the LAN port of the router is 192.168.1.1

For your SimStack modules I'd reconfigure the DHCP range to
192.168.1.100 up to 192.168.1.254

This leaves the IP addresses
192.168.1.2 up to 192.168.1.99 available for static IP assignment (SimStack modules, printers and the like).

On the device you have to configure at least three things:
address: 192.168.1.10
netmask: 255.255.255.0 (this is a key for the address scheme used, should be available in the router administration/configuration interface)
router/default gateway: 192.168.1.1 (the IP address of the LAN port of your router)

This is a *very* basic example, please feel free to ask any questions about network configuration/design.


Cheers

Yoshi

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Stone age, but still at least partially useful:

http://www.hoppie.nl/broker/tcpip.html

[samer747]

I ended up replacing the switch that I had with a managed switch, I did some networking reading and was able to configure switch and cdu's for now, but still long way to go and lots to learn.

Thank you for your support and valuable info

Cheers,

Sam