Navigraph and Simlink support for PSX?

[Will]

I just posted on the Navigraph/Simlink board, asking if they had any updates about building a moving map connection for PSX. The new update to Navigraph charts looks really quite good, and I can imagine that Simlink and moving map support for PSX would be a very welcome enhancement to both products. I don't suppose anyone here has an inside connection to Navigraph, to supply some encouragement to their developers? The last time this was discussed on Navigraph's forum was about a year ago, and they said it was "under consideration."

[andrej]

Will,

I responded to your thread. The thing is that I asked on Navigraph's Facebook when they were presented preview of their new product. I received their "please contact us via forums" response.

I am still hopeful, but not very optimistic.

Cheers,

[andrej]

Navigraph responded:


"Charts 8 has had most of our attention at present, and will for a while till further functionality is added. We shall then review potential developments such as Simlink for PSX."

I need to update my last sentence in a previous post:

Little less hopeful, not optimistic at all.

Cheers,

[Ton van Bochove]

I use the moving map with XP 11 and that works. My only problem with the moving map is that the aircraft pointer is turned 90 degrees to the left.

[B747-400]

Hi,

I messaged them on the forum thread as well. A native .route export and native moving map connectivity - without detours - would be excellent features.

It's important, that our community vote for and request these features on regular bases. If only the same two or three users send their requests, we never will see such a feature 

Just my 2 ct's.

Regards
Hans

[PanosI]

Hi,

I guess that there is not any progress?

I made an unlimited subscription to Navigraph and i can't connect.
I suppose that the they don't have link direct to their software for PSX users

[Will]

I can imagine Navigraph's point of view... Quite a few PSX users admit to already owning Navigraph, and when you combine that fact with the relatively small number of PSX users in total, it just not may make any business sense. I'm sure it would cost a few tens of thousands of dollars to write the necessary code and put it through proper testing, and I'm not sure they would see that much in increased sales.

Maybe the most effective appeal would be to prestige: you'd think it would be worth something to be associated with the most professional sim on the market.

But it's a small corner of the market, and they might consider it better to invest in improving the experience for MSFS users.

If anyone from Navigraph is reading this, please tell me I've got it all wrong and connectivity to PSX is in the works!

[Hardy Heinlin]

If it's just about getting position data from PSX, this requires just a few lines of TCP/IP socket code in any language. Maybe an hour of work -- all in all.

Speaking of moving maps: Some days ago I got a mail from Ben McClintock from Orbx who seems to want to connect PSX to Volanta. I replied but I haven't got a further mail from him yet. I first had to google what "Volanta" was. I'm not familiar with all these products, but maybe Volanta could be another option besides Navigraph?


|-|

[macroflight]

Volanta support would be nice to have in PSX.

I'm using MSFS for PSX visuals, and Volanta works partially. It detects MSFS, but since the MSFS airplane's path is not 100% smooth while taxying, I get some weird artifacts where Volanta things I have bounced and landed, bounced and landed, ...

If Volanta should be interested in implementing PSX support, please let them know that PSX users often have MSFS, P3D or X-Plane running on the same computer, so Volanta either needs to prefer PSX over any other sim it finds running or have a way for the user to choose which sim Volanta should track.

[Takayoshi Sasano]

If it's just about getting position data from PSX, this requires just a few lines of TCP/IP socket code in any language. Maybe an hour of work -- all in all.

Speaking of moving maps: Some days ago I got a mail from Ben McClintock from Orbx who seems to want to connect PSX to Volanta. I replied but I haven't got a further mail from him yet. I first had to google what "Volanta" was. I'm not familiar with all these products, but maybe Volanta could be another option besides Navigraph?


|-|

I recently had a chat with one of the devs, he'd like to talk to you about possibilities to implement PSX support in Volanta. I'll point him to the forum, this would be phantastic :-)

Cheers

Yoshi

[Britjet]

Good publicity actually. Folks will presumably see PSX as an option to select in the maps and be curious..

[Will]

Maybe this should be a new topic... but I have a hard time learning from Volanta's website what Volanta is.

It seems to be a flight following package that takes the position of the aircraft from the sim and projects it onto a map.

But what is Volanta's map? Is it streets and roads? Mountains and rivers? Or airways and NAVAIDs? And Volanta talks about integration with Navigraph... does that mean Volanta is just streets and roads, and it uses Navigraph in some capacity for airways and NAVAIDs? If so, then how would a theoretical PSX connection work... would Volanta give aircraft information to Navigraph, or would Navigraph still need its (nonexistent) PSX/Simlink connection for this all to work together? If Volanta could hypothetically connect to PSX, would it be without any need for MSFS?

Let me just add that the excellent Aeromap already seamlessly places the PSX aircraft on a moving map with streets, roads, mountains, and rivers (everything except airways and NAVAIDs), and displays airports with enough detail that it is suitable for taxiway guidance. The appeal of Navigraph integration would be that you could see your aircraft on a moving map with airways and NAVAIDs, and you can also put your flight route into Navigraph so you can see where you are headed and where you have been. That would be the appeal of using Navigraph as a moving map... seeing your aircraft in the air navigation environment.

Anyway, just curious how Volanta might fit in here.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

What I gleaned from it a week or so ago is that it provides you with a hands-off log book of your flights.

[Takayoshi Sasano]

What I gleaned from it a week or so ago is that it provides you with a hands-off log book of your flights.

That's what to me is the main aspect of the software in terms of functionality.
There also is a big community aspect since you can share/follow flights and keep friends posted.
Native PSX support in Volanta wouldn't replace Navigraph SimLink, that again is a different piece of software.

So we'd love to have both 

I replied but I haven't got a further mail from him yet.

Hardy:
would it be ok to share the "Developers" folder containing the examples with them?

Cheers

Yoshi

[GodAtum]

I'm interested in using Volanta too as Chewwy uses it,  but as you've said it doesn't really work atm which is a shame.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hardy:
would it be ok to share the "Developers" folder containing the examples with them?

Sure.

[andrej]

Having spend several years asking Navigraph to integrate PSX into their system, and with help of many forum members, we managed to add NavData into their offerings (at huge cost for Hardy). There was a momentum few months back (maybe a year?) to add PSX into their Charts, but nothing came out of it.

It was previously conveyed to Navigraph that integrating PSX with their own code is not a difficult task (confirmed by Hardy here). Yet still, they do refuse to act upon this information. Surely a mature product like PSX must give less challenges than product that is not final / mature (e.g. MSFS 2020). This fact is even more perplexing as Navigraph already worked on NavData integration. 

At this point, I came to terms that Navigraph is not interested. What ever reasons they might have, I conclude that Navigraph is not *that* supportive of less popular (in terms of numbers sold as per their own survey). What a shame as in the past I regarded them opposite.

As per their own survey data, about 1%* of responders are users of the PSX (all forms and shapes). And it is similar result to previous surveys (at least for the two years).

Total responses: 25,424 (full + partial)
Full responses only (where respondents answered for all sim options; no partial responses): 16,966
PSX users (any kind): 199 or 1.17% of full responses (0.78% of total)

Yes, the number of us is small (vs. other sims), but I do believe that almost 200 of PSX users will easily pay / already paid for 1 hour of development costs** 

Also, from an expense point of view I believe that capitalizing this cost (under IFRS, development costs can be capitalized -> meeting certain criteria. Hence not necessarily immediately expensed in a full amount), would have a minimal impact on Navigraph's annual R&D costs and thus profitability.

*using Navigraph's own dataset (available here) and their final report (available here)

**median annual salary for Senior Software Developer in Sweden: SEK 589,000
-> total employer salary costs: SEK 775,000 (rounded up for simplicity; but I converted to EUR (EUR / SEK: 11.16) -> EUR 70,000.00)
-> monthly cost: EUR 5,840.00
-> daily cost (20 working days): EUR 292.00
-> hourly cost (8 hours per day): EUR 36.50
-> hourly cost per PSX user (199 users): EUR 0.18

Assuming that PSX users, also use other flight sim software, economies of scale must put this cost per user lower.

In conclusion, I am more than happy to pay EUR 37 (willing to round it to EUR 100) to cover full 1 hour cost for the employer to deploy 1 senior software developer to this project.

Cheers,

[PanosI]

@andrej

Wow !

What a complete and thorough answer Andrej, while one could characterize in only two words the behavior of Navigraph, two words cannot be written in a public forum.

Having read all the threads about the subject in all the forums, I believe that with the least effort and in man-hours and in money it is possible to connect directly Navigraph with the PSX just Navigraph does not care.   

But I like the way you think!

PS. Having now seen both the data written and published (1%), I have to admit that I am not particularly optimistic about the future of this case. 

[B747-400]

Hi,

well said, Andrej!

I've been a developer at my early times for about 15 years. I can imagine, that Navigraph is also taking in account time / costs they need to invest additional to coding: purchasing & setting up PSX, test all the stuff, and not to forget: supporting it as well in case of any questions.

On the other hand: the engine used to display the aircraft symbol on their maps is still present, up and running. So, adding another few lines of code reading and injecting PSX's position data should not be a problem for a skilled developer, I assume they have. Especially not, as Hardy offers sample code and first-class support!

What bothers me most is: they claim to be highly professional, but ignore the most professional sim on the market as well as their excellent, knowledged, community!

As always: just my 2 cent!

Hans

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

*stupid proposal*

I don't know SimLink. Is that API published enough to reverse it, and craft a SimLink to PSX, as an add-on? Would this enable more than just Navigraph software?


Hoppie