Rudder and tiller fighting

[Blake H]

Hi Hardy,

This has been bothering for a while. I noticed if you have opposite rudder and tiller the axis will fight each other and you have dodgy steering on the ground. The tiller flicker on the info tab. My current solution is not to cross controls or set a massive rudder dead zone which means you loss fidelity in the rudder axis.

Two real solutions are

A rudder axis for the tail rudder surface
And a steering axis. This is great for real simulators as we have a tiller/rudder unit. That obviously disconnects airborne.

Other option is if the tiller is out of the dead zone (centre) the steering is only controlled by the tiller. But the rudder act independent. Maybe a better solution for a desktop set up.

But saying that when we do a flight control check on the roll taxiing and we go full rudder left we use a bit of tiller right to stay on the centreline. Which is due to the rudder tiller unit.

Don't know maybe something to think about. But I am never confident steering the Aerowinx beast on ground the using opposite rudder or a small dead zone for the rudder axis.

Cheers Blake

[Blake H]

Personally I think the easiest solution is tiller moving from centre rudder steering = zero. The fighting is no very good compared to losing what the below is trying to simulate real steering on the ground. Which in reality it becomes flicking steering on the ground.


Maybe include an option of:

Divide the axis up ground steering axis and rudder surface axis. Which work well for real simulators.

I always tell people simulator steering terrible on the ground. But this is really bad training. You should be able to have opposite rudder pedal surface and still have commanding steering through the tiller. Not flickering of the tiller axis.
All I know it's not right and negative training. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news

It's a bit my fault as I should have brought it up sooner. Especially as I know what it should be doing.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Personally I think the easiest solution is tiller moving from centre rudder steering = zero.

That makes no sense. It's just another vibration factor (center, off-center, center ...) in your system noise.

The only solution is a good neutral zone in all controls. This is important not only during tiller operations but also in flight. If your rudder signal is so bad, it will also disturb your flight, even when the autopilot is engaged.


|-|ardy

[Blake H]

The centre thing I could agree with, but what about cross controls.

For example, rudder pedal left and the tiller right. We do this for a flight control check to remain on the centreline.

Try moving the tiller left or right and the rudder pedal axis in the opposite direction, they will fight each other. You will see the flickering of the orange line on the info tab. It's like having two independent aileron axis, they will fight for command.

I am using a USB joystick card.

In the real aircraft when the rudder pedals are pressed on the ground the tiller physically moves as this is the real nose wheel input into wheels steering.

Try two aileron axis or oppose the tiller and the rudder pedals. Dynamic movement of course, not static. In the real aircraft you go full rudder pedal at 15 kts on a taxiway straight, you are going to need opposite tiller. We don't sit there static and do a flight control check, it's on the go and it's just what happens. 🙂

[Hardy Heinlin]

On the ground, does your sim hardware tiller move when your sim hardware rudders are moving, like on the real aircraft? If so, I could add an option that cuts the software link between the PSX rudders and the PSX tiller. This way, just your hardware tiller -- and nothing else -- will move the PSX tiller.

If your hardware tiller cannot be moved by your hardware rudder (no mechanical link), then your cannot train the real world rudder check procedure anyway. Then there's no other way to make a sim specific compromise, e.g. deactivate the rudder link to the tiller manually, or move the rudder pedals immediately to max deflection and quickly move the tiller a bit to re-center the tiller. The last signal change wins. When the rudders are at max, they shouldn't be sending any signal change. Now when you move the tiller, that tiller signal change will have the last word, even when you move the tiller back to the center. The last center signal wins.

Of course, this only works when you have a reasonable signal-to-noise ratio. If not, I think you should first eliminate that noise. This noise will also cause problems in flight.

[Blake H]

Currently no.

But I can, like anyone that has a real a/c cockpit as hardware. The tiller/rudder interconnect sits under the captain seat floor on my sim hardware. I have a relay going to it. If I want I could have the lock override sending a signal to it. Unlocked ground (tiller movement)/ locked air (no-tiller movement) I haven't had much time over the covid pandemic to make this work. But I do have time now. 

I would like to have a separate rudder surface input axis and a tiller axis for nose wheel steering only. Also, I could only imagine like my sim, other sim owners have a rudder trim that displaces the rudder pedals. No input into the virtual Aerowinx rudder trim. So it gives you the displacement and feels of the real a/c during asymmetric.

I can't remember exactly how many degrees it is 7?? If it works the rudder pedal input goes into the ground steering only axis and moves the tiller level and simulator nose wheel through the rudder/tiller interconnect.

It would be cool if it's a joystick axis rather than a q code. I couldn't imagine anyone using a q code for the control axis as the dead zone can be adjusted quickly and is neat for quick fidelity check.

Add:
Rudder surface only axis.

Use:
Tiller axis and a rudder surface only axis.
Rudder/tiller interconnect does the hard work.

Rather than
Tiller axis and rudder axis.

[Roddez]

I couldn't imagine anyone using a q code for the control axis as the dead zone can be adjusted quickly and is neat for quick fidelity check.

We inject both the tiller and flight control positions using Q codes.  It works very well and gives us accurate control position data using the OEM Synchros. 

We don't have the issue with the tiller and rudder in our sim here in Sydney, possibly because we are using the Q codes.

Cheers,

Rod.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Add:
Rudder surface only axis.

Use:
Tiller axis and a rudder surface only axis.
Rudder/tiller interconnect does the hard work.

Rather than
Tiller axis and rudder axis.

Why "add"? It would be just this checkbox on the Preferences page:

[x] Rudder pedals will not move tiller handle

[Blake H]

X would work.

Also Rod,

When you flight control check at say 15 knots are you pressing full rudder and using a little bit of tiller in the opposite direction? This is how it is in the real a/c. As you slowly put in rudder you are slowly adding tiller? And when going back to center you are slowly reducing tiller.

Are you using q codes for flight controls or joystick axis? I am using a joystick axis and I don't currently have my rudder/tiller interconnect in use. Deactivated.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Rod uses Q codes (Aerowinx network) for flight controls.

We inject both the tiller and flight control positions using Q codes.

[Blake H]

Maybe this is why I am having an issue? The joystick axis might be super sensitive to change in update of position.

But it would still be cool to have a tick box for the rudder axis. Ground steering on/off.

[Blake H]

Hi Hardy,

Any chance you could look into that checkbox for rudder pedals that don't move the nose wheel steering?

Cheers,

Blake

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Blake,

if you're the only one requesting this "dangerous" feature, I will perhaps add another hidden custom code rather than a public checkbox. Every pref file contains a custom code.

Description: https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php/topic,4406.0.html

Maybe I'll add CustomCode=16 for tiller isolation.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Blake H]

Yes, good idea, it's only really for a sim with a rudder tiller interlink. 

[Matt Sheil]

That would be good Hardy, I have the same problem with Rudder and Tiller interlink installed.

Cheers,
Matt

[Gary Oliver]

+1 for me too... We are currently bodging it too.

[G-CIVA]

+1 for me too

I have the same issue.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Will you guys use this variable?

Qi169="PedStrg"; Mode=ECON; Min=0; Max=1;

It tells you when the aircraft systems want to connect and disconnect the pedal steering (1 = connect).

Aside from the 747 systems, PSX provides an additional one-time-event: At nose wheel touchdown it centers the tiller. Do you want me to inhibit this event too? When it's inhibited, your mechanical tiller system should be really accurate, especially shortly after touchdown, when the speed is still high.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Hardy Heinlin]

The new checkbox for optional pedal-to-tiller hardware is now available in PSX 10.157:

https://aerowinx.com/board/index.php/topic,4191.0.html


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Matt Sheil]

Thanks Hardy, I will run it up today in sim and try it out
Matt