New Approach for Aircraft Add-on Documentation

[Shiv Mathur]

Aerowinx had to purchase data from a professional source and cannot afford monthly cycles.

But can there be no provision for anyone who can afford it
to pay for it and get monthly updates?

Edit: Just for their own private sim.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Would anyone pay, say, 3000 EUR per month? Not to mention the monthly workload with data processing from ARINC format to binary FMC format ...

Now you could collect 1000 users and share the costs. But then we're back at the start position of the discussion.

[Shiv Mathur]

3000 EUR per month?
Ouch !!
Okay, understood now. :?

[Michel Vandaele]

Yes they are the professional prices -  That's always so in aviation  We called it here "Boeing prices"   A part with a Boeing symbol on it cost 100 times more than a normal one   Of course it has to be certified.

I think we first must see how it all works out commercially.  It is good to know it is technical possible.

After all the line must be very thin between the way Navigraph is working, because their are certainly a few addon's from the MSFS world, which are used in the  training / sim world /schools  aswell.

Finally of coursewe don't expect this to be free, but with a monthly subscription or so.

Many thks for all the info Hardy

B. Rgds

Michel

[Zinger]

Would it be possible to sell two variants of the same PSX, or under two different licenses, one for hobby/ private use, another for professional?

Ok, so the situation is this:

1. Affordable Navigraph data may not be reverse engineered.
2. Navigraph cannot provide data to Aerowinx (due to legal restrictions).
3. Aerowinx had to purchase data from a professional source and cannot afford monthly cycles.

Case closed: no monthly cycle for PSX, end of story. No need to complain: the lawyers decided for you.


Jeroen

[Zinger]

Regarding AIRAC changes during  cycle updates, both people citing minor if any may be partially correct, for their region. One US cycle may have no change, the following with numerous.
I disagree with Matthew's assertion that online flying has little use for the updates. I say that as a long time Vatsim senior ATC instructor qualified to control in 3 continents.

Air Berlin after departure from Tel Aviv almost hit an arriving passenger aircraft two weeks ago. The miss distance was 800 meters, instead of the planned 5 NM. The SIDs were modified a few months ago.

[Phil Bunch]

Isn't all that's needed would be for someone to write a translation interface to make the Navigraph/Navdata updates available to PSX?  Wouldn't such a person be able to sell their PSX maps add-on (presumably with Hardy's cooperation along with a percentage of their profits)?  I don't mean that Jeroen H should do all this programming and maintenance, but I assume that somewhere out there is an interested flight sim-related programmer who would welcome the chance to have a small but interested business and market to himself/herself.  Perhaps this should be an exclusive arrangement, "for amateur flight simming only" or perhaps exclusivity isn't necessary.

This way, by my VERY naive legalistic thinking, Hardy wouldn't be providing these maps as a professional airliner training company.  Instead, an independent company/person would provide their maps/software to be sold and used "only for amateur flight simming" or words to that effect.

I fear that if this obvious solution were straightforward, Navigraph/Navdata would already volunteer to provide regularly updated maps data for us rather than avoiding PSX due to legal considerations.

I hesitated to post this suggestion since it surely has already been considered by Hardy and others.  Yet in the US, separate companies are used for purposes more or less like this all the time, mostly to provide legal firewalls and to reduce legal liabilities.

For the record, I am pretty much omnivorous with respect to flight sim software.  I even have a version of X-Plane on my iPad [it doesn't provide much in the way of usability or relevant realism...details available upon request].  But PS1/PSX are my favs, by a large amount.

[Matt Sheil]

I pay about $300 a year for Jeppesen data for charts, then I pay $1200 a year for data for both my Garmin GPS's, that is just for Australia

The World would cost you for Jeppesen Data (Charts) US$17,000 for one year and the Garmin data for the World I think is about US$5,000
I have 2 Garmin GPS's so you double this.

So Boeing prices are also paid by the normal public flying bug smashers.  :lol:

[John Golin]

Isn't all that's needed would be for someone to write a translation interface to make the Navigraph/Navdata updates available to PSX?

While technically it can be done, the End User Licensing Agreement (see quoted section in my earlier post) does not allow a user to manipulate the data in any way.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Would it be possible to sell two variants of the same PSX, or under two different licenses, one for hobby/ private use, another for professional?

This has been discussed with Navigraph and their supplier. No, it's not possible. Everyone could say "I'm a private user".

[John Golin]

Oh well, when PSX is out the users can hassle Navigraph directly... until then... get back to work Hardy!!!!!

[Michel Vandaele]

Well let's hope they will listen, as now already for month's people are asking for data for the famous Danur FOC program, and after more than a year there is still no solution.
It looks that once they think the real life in involved, they  aren't very collaborative anymore.

But as you said John it is a problem once PSX is out.

B. Rgds
Michel

[Matt Sheil]

Regarding AIRAC changes during  cycle updates, both people citing minor if any may be partially correct, for their region. One US cycle may have no change, the following with numerous.
I disagree with Matthew's assertion that online flying has little use for the updates. I say that as a long time Vatsim senior ATC instructor qualified to control in 3 continents.

Air Berlin after departure from Tel Aviv almost hit an arriving passenger aircraft two weeks ago. The miss distance was 800 meters, instead of the planned 5 NM. The SIDs were modified a few months ago.

How many people have died on VATSIM as a result of incorrect data Zinger?

[Michel Vandaele]

How many people have died on VATSIM as a result of incorrect data Zinger?
[/quote]

I think that one of the great things in flightsim and our hobby is that you can make it as complex and difficult you like.  If you like to fly without flightplan, directly to a destination and land your plane their manually or in full auto, it is possible.  When you like to go online and make it more difficult because you have to listen to another controller it is possible too.  Do you like to fly from A to B will a fully documented flight  it is possible too,  so I think that is what makes the hobby so great.  If people likes to fly as realistic as possible and with real life routes and data let them do it, it is their own choice.  If they like to fly on a single pc or in a complex B744 cockpit project as I do, the tools are there, they just have to make a choice.

B. Rgds
Michel

[Zinger]

How many people have died on VATSIM as a result of incorrect data Zinger?

I've seen this weak argument before, but didn't expect it here. You've been building a Boeing 747-400 full motion base simulator with wide display and every switch,  for the last 12 years, just to ignore aviation basics? suit yourself. It isn't me who sets Vatsim standards, but rather the growing pilot and controller community. Although as controller I never demand AIRACS and charts, and they receive courtious and professional services, proper route preparation is appreciated.

[Matt Sheil]

Wow that was an easy fish to catch.
Chill out Zinger, we are all playing a game here  :lol:

[John Golin]

Incidentally, PMDG also sell the 747 manuals now as they have that licensed from Boeing as well.

http://www.precisionmanuals.com/ProductCart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=21

They say it is the actual type rating stuff handed to pilots... the page count certainly looks in the ballpark...

So such doco is already available commercially at a 'reasonable' price... Maybe change the cover pages / binders to suit your taste and voila - 'complete' 747 doco!  

[the mad hatter]

I brought those manuels just to see what they were like, they are photocopies from a (Airline online PDF file me thinks Continental ) is what it looks like the paper is wrong to start with and there is no colour throughout even though they say so;this would lead to confusion and a lengthier learning curve for most. These manuals are certainly not type rating stuff either in differences training or Initial. And they are certainly out of date: I have my doubts as to.. well best I do not go there.

They are the QRH and Vols 1 and 2  certainly not type rating stuff plus small laminated flow charts, nothing you could not find on line.

As for updates for on line fun  once a year is cool can you get an online update in the states from Jepp for a few dollars and they are current enough for simulation.. If people really want real world procedures and real world cockpits ( ie using real parts etc etc ) then by the time you add everything up you could have completed your ATPL paid for type rating into the 747 1,2,3 built some hours then transferred to the 400 after 500 hours PIC be earning 250k a year in China

if people want the full set then they need these:

1. Learning objectives document:   79 pages
2. Qualification Training                  129 pages (explanation of what this is below)
to combine your systems and procedures knowledge with your flying
and CRM skills to complete airport to airport scenarios in preparation
for the Line Operational Evaluation (LOE). These modules will start at
a gate and end at a gate. The order in which your instructor will brief
and present the material covered in each module is outlined in detail in
the XXXX  Instructor Guide (DIG). The DIG is available to trainees
through the Flight Ops Instructor link of the Flight Ops homepage.

3. OE TOE Crew duties                      2 pages
4. QRH Memory items                        4 pages
5. Ground maneroving                     14 pages plus a powerpoint presentation
6. Anti Icing and hold over Tables    22 pages
7. Ops Manuel 2                            1122 pages
8. Sleep quide                                   22 pages
9. QRH                                             448 pages
10. Crew duties reference card           1 page
11. Curriculum quide                          34 pages
12. FTC                                            967 pages
13. Ops man vol 1                            878 pages
14. Polar ops guide
15. RNAV  Approach                           62 pages
16. Then the initial books about another 3000 odd pages plus charts graphs etc  the sim books and lessons. My fingers got tired repeating the list but there is more another 15 documents in various lengths and page counts:



Then add another 35-40 days for training into type.

In my view neither PS1 or PSX is being aimed at the the beginner nor will it ever be: So what Precision manuals is doing does not really add a lot of value because there is no initial qualification documents. The PS1 docs are fine they cover the basics and that all you really need to get going...The 747 is a complex aircraft and Hardy is right assumptions have to be made to basic flying skill sets:

As to copyright. Thats a good one, there is this message in ours:

In the event this Operations Manual is sold or distributed to any
other party, no warranty or guarantee, expressed or implied, is made as to
the accuracy, sufficiency or suitability of the materials contained herein or
of any revision, supplement or bulletin hereto. It is understood and agreed
to by such other party that it shall release indemnify and hold XXX Air
Lines, its officers, employees and agents harmless against any and all
claims or actions of whatever nature which may arise or claim to arise
from the use hereof.

 then you just say this all rights to boeing respected blah blah and for simulation use only blah blah and boeing can do nothing.  Having taken legal advise on this because I thought it easy money for old rope there is nothing stopping anyone doing this what to say you did not purchase these manuals from a salvage company scanned them into pdf format added new headers and footers and then what bobs your uncle right?

[John Golin]

I think it more addresses those who want a nice printed copy of such docos - there is no disputing there is more paperwork than that for each airline.  

Hey my car came with two manuals, both thick and hard to read - one was for the car, the other for the Satnav / entertainment system!  :shock:

[the mad hatter]

true John even if I made them open they the said person would have to print them it would be waaaaaaaaaaaay more cost competitive to purchase the PM manuals  I think the QRH and Vols 1 and 2 would properly run about 300 USD so its a bargain at that price.