Potential sim trouble coming up (again)

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

With the recent Q400 joyride near Seattle, of course, the whole topic of "should aircraft operation skills be as closely guarded as nuclear missile operation skills" is coming up again.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/12/opinions/seattle-stolen-plane-opinion-abend/index.html

Next: one or zero pilots aboad for safety & economy.


Hoppie

[jb747]

The paranoia is there.  I host a neighborhood flying challenge periodically and give them challenging approaches to try.  Think Pero, Kai Tak, etc.  This last time around a neighbor lady thought that her son-in-law, who is an air force captain might like to try it and left him a voicemail.  She had the phone number wrong and got a very vocal call back from a lady that said she was reporting it to the police and that this had to clearly be illegal.

[Avi]

I have a simple solution: Lock the cockpit door at all times and give access to only authorized personnel through a key and/or door code.

Right. What will be the next solution / suggestion after an authorized personnel will do such a thing?
There was in the past more than one case of a pilot who committed suicide and murdered on the way hundreds of people. So what is the solution for this?

[Phil Bunch]

Here's a link to a video of "how to start the Q400", using MSFS, dated 2013:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usKRZRPhjgU

"Froogle prepares to embark on a mammoth trip from St. Barths to Miami, first taking some party goers from St. Barths out to Princess Julianna in St. Maarten. In this video, we work through the flows and checklists necessary to get the Q400 powered up and ready to go."

[Phil Bunch]

The TV news shows I watched claim that he didn't have any sort of pilot's license.  Various people speculated that he may have done some professional and/or consumer grade flight sim work.

Here's a link to some ATC audio for this incident:

https://theaircurrent.com/aviation-safety/final-radio-call-from-stolen-horizon-air-q400/

More media links are here:

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/6991591/seattle-plane-hijacker-reveals-why-stole-jet-final-call-before-crash/

I'm personally surprised that he could execute various aerobatic exercises, apparently including a barrel roll and a split S.  About half-way down the above page the video seems to show the aircraft flying about 50 feet off the lake surface, just after a barrel roll. I assume having an empty aircraft would help him perform aerobatics.

Will an empty 747-400 (and PSX) do a barrel roll or split S?!

Guesses on TV news shows are mostly that he used MS Flight Sim, but they may just be guessing.  Perhaps he was also able to access full-motion flight sims for this aircraft through people he knew at his airline?  I knew someone who worked in the airline's accounting office related to pilot pay and he was able to play with big sims occasionally as well as obtain access for a few friends. 
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<I got some indications that this reply may end up being posted twice...AFAIK, this isn't *really* happening...>

[cagarini]

On the subject of it being possible for someone not trained in an airliner to actually start it from C&D, taxi it to the rw, takeoff.... I believe the realism achieved by nowadays flight simulation games makes it possible from a purely theoretical pov, and actually what just happened proves it to be practically possible after all...

It's probably time to seriously consider adopting the installation of devices / software that require an encrypted key to start some of the systems, at least those that can expose their use in the wrong hands to danger / hazard and of course those that can make the engines start...

The key(s) would be handed to the crew before starting each flight, or a full series for the day...

[Will]

Sure, it's spectacular when someone steals an airliner and flies it away from the airport... but how often has this happened? It's about once a decade or so. If even that.

So I hope people keep their heads about them, and don't do anything draconian to "fix" the problem.

[United744]

The whole security thing is out of control. It's no longer about security, but paranoia and control.

People must be trusted to do their jobs, and just ... exist.

You can't protect against every malicious action.

People kill people with knives, but you can still go to the supermarket and buy them.

Perspective is what is required. Yes, it is high profile, but it is also very rare.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

I agree with that.

Installing 'security' means installing 'trouble'. At work I have the cynical saying: it doesn't work, so it's secure. And if it is secure, it doesn't work.

Security and safety actually can often bite each other. Like, the aforementioned security device to start the plane malfunctions in midflight. It should not stop the plane. But it may. And you cannot restart it. How much tech do you need to install to avoid this? Tech will fail. More tech, more failures.

I of course am not so silly to propose no security, but measures should be proportional to chance that they are needed, chance that they actually work when needed, chance that they do not work when needed, and chance that they work when not needed. If you install sufficient security, you make all work impossible. People will actually start circumventing security to get their work done.

I sincerely hope that security will not overtake safety as the major aviation concern. I have the nasty feeling that there are already forces that consider safety overdone (look at the statistics! we can do with much less and still be sufficiently safe to make a profit!) and at the same time security underdone (you can download aircraft operation manuals on the internet. THE INTERNET!!!!).

Hoppie

[G-CIVA]

you can download aircraft operation manuals on the internet. THE INTERNET!!!!

Arrrrghh dammit ... you've said it now ... on the internet too.

[Will]

The cheapest solution, if a solution is even needed, is to use the cockpit door locks. Let the flight crew (and ground crew) pick up keys from dispatch when they need them, otherwise keep the cockpit door closed and locked when nobody is inside.

But there won't ever be 100% safety. If the ground crew wants to steal a plane, they can do it when they are at work and have permission to reposition the aircraft. Just like the flight crew can crash the plane if they want.

Thankfully, these things are so rare that the system is probably already safe enough as it is.

[cavaricooper]

You can't legislate morality.

Today's news is tomorrow's fish-wrap...


C

[Jeroen D]

Many, many moons ago Ton van Bochove and I rented CargoLux and Lufthansa full sims from their training centres in Luxemburg and Frankfurt.

This was before 9/11. I remember the instructor was quite surprised when we showed up with detailled flight plans and scenario's we wanted to try. We certainly started up a dark ship, taxied out, took off and performed many, many landings. Obviously, there is much more to being a pilot. But it does proof a point that even in those days, we are talking PS1 (1.3?) you could teach yourself a lot in terms of how planes operate.

Our last sessions was just a few days before 9/11. Within a few days I got a call from tsombody claiming to be from he German Police. They had spoken to our instructor. They wanted to know why did we rent the simulator and how did we acquire all the knowledge?

So I told him about PS, I told him about all the manuals, charts and other information that are easily available on the Internet, Ebay and so on. I told him, if you ever are in the Netherlands stop by and I will show you. He phoned back the next day and we made an appointment. He said he would bring some collegeas.

A few days later three gentlemen show up at my front door. The German police officer, who introduced himself properly and showed his id. He introduced the other two gentlemen just by their first names. No title was given. And they were very obvious Americans.

So I took them up to my little office, showed them PS, my Yoke and all the manuals and other books I had acquired over the years. Actually in those days I bought quite a bit on Ebay.com. Send an enveloppe with dollars across to the USA and a few weeks later a package would appear.

They asked a lot of questions, made a lot of notes and left after an hour, maybe hour and a half. Thanked me extensively. Never heard anything since.

Except...... I noticed that very soon all modern aviation material such as AOM, charts etc were becoming less and less available on Ebay.com. It just appeared to be drying up, but I don't believe in such coincidences.

Obviously since, 9/11 the various Flight Training Centre that rent out commercial airplane simulators have enforced very strict rules. You don't get to pick your co-pilot, limited time and you certainly can't bring your own flight plan as I understand it.

After a few months we got a letter from the Lufthansa training centre and old pre-9/11 customers these rules would not apply to us. We never tried going back though

Jeroen

[Hardy Heinlin]

We too got a phone call shortly after 9/11 because of PS1. From the German Bundeskriminalamt. There were some questions. No consequences.


|-|ardy

[Chris Kilroy]

The whole security thing is out of control. It's no longer about security, but paranoia and control.

People must be trusted to do their jobs, and just ... exist.

You can't protect against every malicious action.

People kill people with knives, but you can still go to the supermarket and buy them.

Perspective is what is required. Yes, it is high profile, but it is also very rare.

Exactly. Somewhere along the way, we seem to have developed a whole group of people who think that if you make enough rules, you can prevent every bad thing from ever happening. The rest of us (the ones with brains), of course, know that's phooey of the highest order.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Sometimes, the rules have been produced out of fear of other rules. Liability is a wonderful thing, but can get out of hand quickly if it becomes just a tool to earn large sums of money fast. Some 'security' measures are merely 'liability protection'.


Hoppie

[John H Watson]

Any increase in security now seems pointless....  Even if all information was removed from the internet, people still have this stuff on their hard drives. They can close the gate, but the horse has already bolted.

Airlines and aircraft manufacturers have very strict rules on data and what information is allowed to be publically published/reproduced, but these rules are regular broken on YouTube, Instagram, etc. My old airline wouldn't allow any videos/photos to be published unless it went through head office review committees.

Also, tighter rules (on what can and can't be seen) may have a negative impact on safety. If I saw a photo of a broken steering collar (in that other forum thread), I would be paying more attention to the steering collar on my next walkaround (if I was a pilot or engineer).... or (if I was a maintenance scheduler) I would be looking at my nosegear lubrication schedules long before Boeing issued an advisory.

[Phil Bunch]

As others have discussed, including in this thread, aviation safety has progressed extremely far in recent decades.

Trying to reduce the probability of extremely rare events (such as this recent hijacking by an employee) is inherently very difficult to accomplish as well as a relatively poor place to invest our collective efforts.  Currently, it is almost impossible to be killed during a commercial flight, with years elapsing without a fatal accident. 

I personally suspect that the willingness to support the current practice of using unlimited resources in an attempt to reduce the death rate per passenger mile even further is based almost entirely on the deep fear most humans have about death due to falling out of the sky while being strapped in one's seat.  Also, it is very uncomfortable for most of us to completely relinquish control of our fate to the crew while flying around at 30,000 feet at 600 mph.  In a car we cling to the belief that we can personally hit the brakes or turn the steering wheel or accelerate to avoid an imminent crash.  In an airliner we must just sit there and let a frightening major disaster happen. 

Somehow, we need to migrate human psychology to the model we use each time we trust our lives and health to our doctors each time we are ill or need surgery, etc.  At least with doctors, anesthesia and amnesia-inducing medications are routinely used for most surgeries, etc!

Just some thoughts...I suspect it is very unlikely that we will relax air travel safety any time soon, but clearly we need to do so!
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One's reaction depends heavily on exactly which statistic is used and how it is phrased.  How many airline fatalities per year would be accepted or at least considered "not unreasonable"?  Other metrics might be better, such as fatalities per passenger-mile or per trip...  I think I would find more than about one major crash per month worldwide would be hard for me to accept.  One's reaction depends in part on how much background one has in probability and statistics.

[United744]

I trust the flight crew to be professional and do their jobs to the end. Aside from a couple of crashes, the majority of flight crew want to live, and will fight to the end to survive, and save everyone with them.

That's my thought every time I step on an aircraft.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Same here... and I also trust their FLIGHT or FIGHT response has been biased by training towards FLIGHT, even if this means no flight and cancel it for today. I only complain loudly about delays and cancellations when there is no reason given to the poor cattle.

Hoppie