Merry Christmas ... and I don't mean 'happy celebrations' ..

[Shiv Mathur]

Sorry Martin, I misunderstood.

I was referring to reports that many Institutions (schools, city councils, etc.)
are now not using the word "Christmas" in their celebrations and greetings.

http://www.redphonediaries.com/2009/12/04/christmas-removed-from-macys-corporate-gift-guide/

http://noosa-journal.whereilive.com.au/news/story/council-sidesteps-the-word-christmas/

The second link contains this quote:
"Defending its generic message, council initially said it had no policy to remove Christmas but was ``mindful of people's different backgrounds and beliefs''. "

So you cannot call your wedding anniversary a 'wedding anniversary',  because you are 'mindful' that other people may not be married ...

I just don't get this.

They have (specifically) Diwali celebrations in the USA ... likewise
Eid celebrations.  Why not Christmas

Shiv

[Holger Wende]

Hi Shiv,

Allthough I missed your previous post with Martin I agree with the irritation about "lost" Christmas!
I also was somehow confused when I recognised an increasing number of Christmas greetings is nowadays camouflaged as e.g. "seasons greetings". What are "seasons greetings"?

Are there really cultures that feel offended by Christmas greetings?

I love to receive e.g. "Buddha birthday greetings" etc. from friends in other countries and cultures. To me this is by far more personal and honest than these undistinctive "seasons greetings" or whatever other people write.

Anyway, Merry Christmas to all of you, in all corners of the world, in all cultures enjoying any sort of season...  
Holger

[Will]

First off, I celebrate Christmas.  (In fact, I'm the thurifer for tonight's midnight mass.)  But I think the difference here in the USA between "Merry Christmas" and "Happy Buddha Birthday" is that Christmas is the dominant cultural event; it has the place of power in society.  So when you wish someone a Merry Christmas, it can sound like you're making an assumption that the someone is part of the dominant culture.  That can be irritating to people who proudly have a cultural tradition of their own.  I really don't think is has anything to do with American Christians being apologetic for Christmas per se.  More generally, I think it's people in the dominant culture showing respect for the underdog.

[frumpy]

sounds complicated, guys. to me christmas is just
a celebration of... being, maybe? i mean many people
these days are depressive, they are alone, everyone
else is having a party... so i enjoy to be with family
and friends, make a few gifts, enjoy these moments
and just being there... thats a gift.

religious background... so it be. i am not religious.
the only thing that bothers me is that "jesu geburt"
schmaltzy talk on the radio. and even without
christianity we would celebrate some kind of fest
these days. i dont care. it can be fun, its unique
and precious.

so... merry christmas!  

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Joeltijd++

[Phil Bunch]

While I have much the same personal opinion as others have expressed about the "neutralization" of the Christmas season, Christmas greeting cards, etc, there is a difficult context in the USA about such issues.

For example, some years ago,  in my childrens' western New York state elementary school, all Christmas decorations in the classroom and the hallways were forbidden by the school district's administration.  I was initially annoyed by this but when I talked about the situation with a Jewish family whose children attended school, they convinced me that there is another point of view in our multicultural societies.  

They discussed about how stressful it had become for their children to be in a school during the Christmas season where the substantial majority of the children were at least nominally interested in Christmas and who also participated in one of the Christian religions to a significant degree.  Christmas trees, Christmas posters, religious posters abounded, and had even spread to all the school hallways.  Yet there was no recognition of Jewish childrens' Hanukkah holiday (which occurs at about the same time), and no interest in acknowledging or celebrating other Jewish holidays or beliefs.  At the same time, Jewish families were taxed to support the Christmas celebrations, and thus forced to pay for these religious activities.

As a result, a group of Jewish families met with school administration and it was agreed that all religious celebrations and religious activities would no longer be conducted.

I don't mean to single out Jewish families in offering this bit of my personal history to this discussion.  The same issues would apply to other non-Christian children and their families, especially in public, tax-supported schools where money is forcibly taken from everyone to pay for the schools.

In work environments, especially for big corporations in the USA, it's common to prohibit open, visible displays of religious beliefs, although the precise line that one must not cross is not always clear.  For example, a friend was asked to remove a religious-oriented automatic "sig" line from his company e-mails.  He was also asked to not display religious-oriented decorations on his office wall.  US law requires not only freedom from active, explicit discrimination, but companies must also avoid creating a "hostile environment" by permitting dirty jokes, racial jokes, sexist jokes, and other such things.  Again in the US, with our lawsuit-based economy, very large lawsuits have been won by people who experienced such things.  Discriminatory actions or conduct is strongly forbidden legally, especially in large companies and organizations.

It just doesn't seem that anyone has solved all aspects of providing a non-discriminatory and accepting environment for all subgroups of humanity.  But a great deal of progress has been made in recent decades.  

These are just a few comments, not intended to create discomfort and not advocating specific policies or practices.    I hope they help provide some context and that they stimulate further thought and useful discussions.

[Phil Bunch]

 I really don't think is has anything to do with American Christians being apologetic for Christmas per se.  More generally, I think it's people in the dominant culture showing respect for the underdog.

Will,

I very much agree with your post, especially your last few sentences.  I've come to suspect that the USA is different from many other countries with respect to such issues and practices.

[Peter Lang]

Bahhh... thats complicated.  

I just wish everybody peaceful days, some good food and happy landings. Lets call it merry christmas  :mrgreen:

Peter

[Zinger]

I like Phil's post below. I think US society has made great strides in accomodating a multitude of religions and cultures living side by side. I also believe that his school situation is a thing of earlier days in its evolution.

I also agree with the Swiss vote, they are protecting their culture from another which carries on its flag the forced conversion of all others.

Regarding Christmas, I was born to parents who escaped as small children Bolshevik revolution persecution, family members were beaten to death in Ukraine, just because of their heritage. My family was very religious, however I'm married to a Catholic, Adam my firsborn went out with me after Christmas Eve dinner tonight so that Jesus can place gifts under the tree. My wife lights Shabat candles every Friday afternoon. Two weeks ago we had the most spectacular oil Chanukia lit for 8 nights, a wedding gift from her colleagues.

While I have much the same personal opinion as others have expressed about the "neutralization" of the Christmas season, Christmas greeting cards, etc, there is a difficult context in the USA about such issues.

For example, some years ago,  in my childrens' western New York state elementary school, all Christmas decorations in the classroom and the hallways were forbidden by the school district's administration.  I was initially annoyed by this but when I talked about the situation with a Jewish family whose children attended school, they convinced me that there is another point of view in our multicultural societies.  

They discussed about how stressful it had become for their children to be in a school during the Christmas season where the substantial majority of the children were at least nominally interested in Christmas and who also participated in one of the Christian religions to a significant degree.  Christmas trees, Christmas posters, religious posters abounded, and had even spread to all the school hallways.  Yet there was no recognition of Jewish childrens' Hanukkah holiday (which occurs at about the same time), and no interest in acknowledging or celebrating other Jewish holidays or beliefs.  At the same time, Jewish families were taxed to support the Christmas celebrations, and thus forced to pay for these religious activities.

As a result, a group of Jewish families met with school administration and it was agreed that all religious celebrations and religious activities would no longer be conducted.

I don't mean to single out Jewish families in offering this bit of my personal history to this discussion.  The same issues would apply to other non-Christian children and their families, especially in public, tax-supported schools where money is forcibly taken from everyone to pay for the schools.

In work environments, especially for big corporations in the USA, it's common to prohibit open, visible displays of religious beliefs, although the precise line that one must not cross is not always clear.  For example, a friend was asked to remove a religious-oriented automatic "sig" line from his company e-mails.  He was also asked to not display religious-oriented decorations on his office wall.  US law requires not only freedom from active, explicit discrimination, but companies must also avoid creating a "hostile environment" by permitting dirty jokes, racial jokes, sexist jokes, and other such things.  Again in the US, with our lawsuit-based economy, very large lawsuits have been won by people who experienced such things.  Discriminatory actions or conduct is strongly forbidden legally, especially in large companies and organizations.

It just doesn't seem that anyone has solved all aspects of providing a non-discriminatory and accepting environment for all subgroups of humanity.  But a great deal of progress has been made in recent decades.  

These are just a few comments, not intended to create discomfort and not advocating specific policies or practices.    I hope they help provide some context and that they stimulate further thought and useful discussions.

[Zinger]

The reason I often use "Happy holidays" is, because the multi-cultural society I am in now celebrates a number of holidays, not one- Chanuka, Christmas celebrated on different dates by Catholics and Greek Catholics/ Orthodox, Sylvester, etc...
I understand why Jews in Phil's school felt offended while their holidays were subdued, by a culture whose Rome leadership lied about Jesus crusifiction to arouse hatred, and did little two millenia afterwards to rescue WW II fugitives during and after the war. We have gradually evolved and nowadays due to communications, travel and massive immigration, many societies recognize what US has done well as I wrote. There is acknowledgement and coverage in international of Diwali, Eid etc... which is good. Every culture can greatly contribute to our lives.

But still we as human society have learned nothing, from WW II and the 50 millions killed, Cambodia, Biafra, Rwanda, Stalin... A new Hitler is right around the corner, to some he is a worthy trading partner, to others he appears out of range, to yet others there are more important issues than to deal with this outright. And when a certain mini-country which learned the lesson will soon wipe him out in the lack of help with his stranglehold, they will all wake up and denounce the inhuman act. Terminator II was right, and he came from the culture which gave us Hitler, Heider and Fritzel.

Sorry Martin, I misunderstood.

I was referring to reports that many Institutions (schools, city councils, etc.)
are now not using the word "Christmas" in their celebrations and greetings.

http://www.redphonediaries.com/2009/12/04/christmas-removed-from-macys-corporate-gift-guide/

http://noosa-journal.whereilive.com.au/news/story/council-sidesteps-the-word-christmas/

The second link contains this quote:
"Defending its generic message, council initially said it had no policy to remove Christmas but was ``mindful of people's different backgrounds and beliefs''. "

So you cannot call your wedding anniversary a 'wedding anniversary',  because you are 'mindful' that other people may not be married ...

I just don't get this.

They have (specifically) Diwali celebrations in the USA ... likewise
Eid celebrations.  Why not Christmas

Shiv

[Qavion]

A non-denominational shift worker may find the expression "happy holidays", offensive : P

I choose not to be offended by any expression of good will. If someone wants to wish me nice thoughts... who am I to complain?

At the risk of offending manufacturers of WMD.... Peace

Q>

[Mundyas]

Well I think I will try to be original and fly to Xmas Island this morning.
For once Xmas Day on my own, no worries about that.
Not sure my flying  skills up to a visual approach! this morning but practice makes perfect.
Happy flying everybody in the future and naturally looking forward like everybody to FSX (whoops!) PSX I mean
Andrew

[Peter Sagar]

My very good friend who is a semi-practising Muslim Iranian immigrant, always sends me a Christmas card each year. He says that he came to Australia to escape the Iranian fundamentalists, and in full knowledge that Australia is predominantly Christian; so he said it was his obligation as a new Australian Citizen to assimilate the culture and blend in. He even speaks very fluent "Aussie" with a full Australian drawl now!

Peter.