Flap speed additives

[Stephane LI]

Hi,

when handflying the aircraft during the approach, our virtual copilot (Sarah, Mel, Roland, Sean), is setting the MCP speed to Flaps maneuvering speed + 10 KT.
I think this is something specific to airlines SOP.
In the FCOM, Boeing says to set speed bug to the maneuvering flaps speed.
Is there a way I can change this, so the copilot does not add 10 KT to the maneuvering speed ?
Or maybe, in a future update, the option to choose between flaps maneuvering speed or flaps maneuvering speed+10KT (like the Vref30 or Vref25 option).

Stéphane

Edited by Stephane : corrected +10kt instead of +5kt. In my first post, I made a mistake. Of course, I wanted to say Flaps speed + 10kt, and not landing speed Vref+5kt.



Edit HH: Subject changed from "Virtual copilot" to "Flap speed additives".

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi,

which page are you referring to, and which airline does it like that?


|-|ardy

[Stephane LI]

Hello Hardy,

it's in Boeing FCTM in fact. You can find it in two places in the manual.

1) In part 1 General Information, section Maneuver Margins to Stick Shaker - Flap Extension. There is a tab below the graphic displayed

2) Or in part 5 Approach and Missed Approach, section Flap Configurations for Approach and Landing, Paragraph Flap Extension Schedule. There is the same tab as in 1) above.

I don't give the page numbers as it may differs if you don't have the same FCTM Revision as mine.

The tab says :

Current Flap Position : UP
At Speedtape "Display" : "UP" Vref30+80
Select Flaps : 1
Command Speed for Selected Flaps : "1"  ( Comment : that means the Maneuvering speed for flaps 1 and the bug 1 displayed on the speedtape Vref30+60)

Current Flap Position : 1
At Speedtape "Display" : "1" Vref30+60
Select Flaps : 5
Command Speed for Selected Flaps : "5"

Current Flap Position : 5
At Speedtape "Display" : "5" Vref30+40
Select Flaps : 10
Command Speed for Selected Flaps : "10"

Current Flap Position : 10
At Speedtape "Display" : "10" Vref30+20
Select Flaps : 20
Command Speed for Selected Flaps : "20"

Current Flap Position : 20
At Speedtape "Display" : "20" Vref30+10
Select Flaps : 25 or 30
Command Speed for Selected Flaps : Vref25 or Vref30 + wind additives

Comment : the flaps "10" position may be skiped, depending on the approach performed

Stephane

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Stephane,

now I see which pages you mean. Well, the first section does not mention command speeds, does it? But the other section does.

This table under "Flap Extension Schedule" is a recommendation, or a reference for additives. The first sentence under that table reads:

"Flight profiles should be flown at, or slightly above, the recommended maneuver speed for the existing flap configuration."

Now, what airline does not apply additives? There is a "wind" additive for VREF, but airlines typically also apply an additional, fixed 5 knot additive to VREF, as far as I have seen in the past 20 years. And that also to the flap speeds.

Making these additives optional instead of fixed, is a lot of work for me; if every airline applies additives anyway, ... hm ... there is no big chance that an "optional removal" will get a high priority on my todo list, I'm afraid.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[Stephane LI]

Okay. Thanks for the info. Don't change anything.
You have worked enough those last years for PSX and you deserve your holidays !  
I'll follow the virtual copilot SOP    (Flaps speed + 10KT) and Vref+5Kt with landing flaps fully configured. No problem ! I will then manually correct the MCP speed if needed for the wind additives.
We need to work a little bit in the cockpit and not rely entirely on our copilot and automatism.

Stephane

[Hardy Heinlin]

Ah, right, it's +10 in PSX.

I could easily make that +5 instead, as a compromise.

Any comments? Who's using +5?


|-|

[Sylle]

Now, what airline does not apply additives?
...

Hi Hardy,

I believe in fact most airlines are not (or no longer) applying additives to the flap manoeuvring speeds.

KLM for example isn't doing it.
Watch on youtube HERE.
F/O asks flaps 20 at 3:10.
When flaps are at 20 at 3:40 the captain selects the flaps manoeuvring speed on the MCP.

Another example shot in a 744 sim HERE.
As soon as the position freeze is cancelled the speed bug is set at flaps manoeuvring speed and is used for every subsequent flap setting except landing flaps.

I would suggest making the virtual F/O speed additive zero in PSX.

Regards,
Sylvain

[Stephane LI]

Sylvain is right, this is what I wanted to say, but made a mistake and a confusion in my first post, which I just edited.
Of course, I wanted to say that the virtual copilot is setting Flaps speed + 10kt, and should set Flaps maneuvering speed like Sylvain said.
The final landing speed is correctly set by the copilot, Vref30 or Vref25 plus 5kt, as he can't guess how much wind additives he must add. For the wind additives we can manually correct the mcp speed to the desired value.

Stephane

[Xavier]

I would actually guess that the +5kt additive to the VREF30 is there to allow immediate flaps retraction to 20 in case of a go around (if I remember well there is something about this in Boeing's FCTM, stipulating that VREF30 + 5 garantees maneuvering speed at Flaps20).

Plus wind correction to be added if over 5kt of course.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Quote from Lufthansa's "Normal Procedures":

"After flaps have reached selected position, set command speed bug to flap maneuver speed +10."

Has Lufthansa changed this rule? Does anybody know?


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi all,

which airlines other than Lufthansa apply flap speed additives, and how many knots?

Does anybody know?

In PSX 10.0.2 the value can be modified with a text editor in the respective *.pilot file.

The value will be displayed on the Pilot page in the existing yellow text box under "Silent tasks".


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[Britjet]

BA was on the bug.
Britjet

[Hardy Heinlin]

Apropos of BA: I'm changing the model files (because of the new CLB washout option). Is BA still NOT using the Rising Runway?

I see there should be no Gasper on BA.


|-|

[G-CIVA]

Is BA still NOT using the Rising Runway?

BAW have always used the Rising RWY - its should have been included in the orig files we created for you - I just checked the files we created & it was in the original text.

I see there should be no Gasper on BA.

Correct.  No Gasper on the BAW overhead.

[Hardy Heinlin]

Well, Britjet recently missed the FPV on the PFD when below 200 ft :-)

I've learned (from other sources) that the FPV blanks when the Rising Runway rises, which happens below 200 ft.

So we thought you can only have the FPV or the RR at a time below 200 ft. Britjet is sure that the FPV is displayed below 200 ft on real BA aircraft.

This dilemma led to the question whether BA introduced the RR only recently.

Perhaps there is an option No. 9875544: "Blank FPV when RR rises"?


|-|

[Hardy Heinlin]

Ha! :-) I forgot that Gasper is intentionally not an option in PSX. It's installed on all PSX aircraft.

This is one of those features under the motto:
"If you don't need this button, just don't push it."

Similar to the PVD; it's installed on all PSX aircraft. Not an option. If you don't want to use it, just don't use it.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[Britjet]

In BA the flight path vector definitely remains visible below 200ft..as far as I am aware it is independent of the rising runway (which would only be visible anyway for a localiser signal, of course...)

Britjet.

[John H Watson]

This is strange, as the British Airways Maintenance Manual states that the FPV disappears at 200' if the Rising Runway is displayed.

AMM ref 34-21-00 June 2005

Rgds
JHW

P.S. Other rules:
On go-around, if the aircraft descends below 200' RA while the Rising Runway is displayed, the FPV disappears until the aircraft ascends to more than 200' RA.
During rollout, the Rising Runway symbol blanks and the FPV re-appears
During takeoff with the loc selected, the Rising Runway symbol is blanked, the rad alt appears at the bottom of the PFD, and the FPV symbol is available.

[Hardy Heinlin]

This is strange, as the British Airways Maintenance Manual states that the FPV disappears at 200' if the Rising Runway is displayed.

AMM ref 34-21-00 June 2005

Maybe this is true only during takeoff and go-around?


Cheers,

|-|ardy

[John H Watson]

No, the manual states before the other rules:

(4) On approach, with the FPV symbol and the rising runway displayed, the FPV symbol disappears at 200 feet, radio altitude.