Lithium batteries in 787 may pose fire issues

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Jeroen, although I normally trust the BBC, this is such a departure from Boeing standards that I doubt it.

No, technically these batteries may not be required if the engines are running and all busses are online, true. But that does not mean they are not used. They power the standby bus and a few other busses and if you would take them out, a whole Chrismas tree would light up on the warning panels. They are an essential component in the aircraft's electrical system, even more than in older generations aircraft, and this is exactly why they are Li-Ion.


Hoppie

[Phil Bunch]

The latest NY Times story on the 787 battery saga, with some new information:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/business/safety-board-examines-787-battery-approval.html?ref=todayspaper&_r=0

Click on the photo of the hearing at the above web page.  The body language and dress style of the participants at the hearing table is interesting to me as a (retired) staff scientist who also worked for a large company.  

Excerpt:

"We are here to understand why the 787 experienced unexpected battery failures following a design program led by one of the world's leading manufacturers and a certification process that is well-respected throughout the international aviation community," Deborah A. P. Hersman, the board's chairwoman, said.

--------------------------------------

As best I can follow the description of he Boston airport ground fire, fume and smoke evacuation of the smoking/burning battery failed in part because the battery compartment's exhaust fans had no power on the ground.  The failure of the battery meant that there was no ground power for these exhaust fans.  

Should there be a separate backup battery and/or other power sources for lithium battery exhaust fans?  Is this a weak element in the 787's design that won't survive a battery fire or failure, or is this just one of many, many components that doesn't have an unlimited number of backups?  Is the new lithium battery design backed up to supply power to the exhaust fans during a battery fire?  Would a burning lithium battery cell safely stay within the new metal case? Would burning lithium clearly and with certainty be ejected from the aircraft as the news summaries of the design seem to imply?  

The issue of what components and subsystems should have one or more layers of backups is an interesting one - I assume that the bigger the plane the more backups can be carried.  As "Captain Tarmack" (Mel Ott) once said (paraphrasing), "the only reason I fly an airliner with 4 engines is because they don't make one that has 5 engines".  I gather that he didn't fully approve of 2-engine long-range airliners.

[Phil Bunch]

A webcast is available for a two-day forum on lithium batteries, etc, in transportation:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/batteryforum/index.html

[EDIT:]  PDFs, etc, of the presentations are here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/batteryforum/presentations.html


Here's a summary of the agenda, taken from the above web site:
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Panel 1: Design, Development, and Use of Lithium Ion Battery Technology

Objective: This panel will discuss the design, development, and performance of lithium ion batteries. The design and development discussion will focus on battery configurations; advantages and disadvantages based on chemistry, power stability, and energy density; physical and electrical protective devices; manufacturing procedures and best practices; and quality assurance. The battery performance discussion will explore failure modes and other performance issues. Discussions will also include the range of lithium ion battery manufacturing processes.

Panel 2: Regulations & Standards for Lithium Ion Batteries

Objective: This panel will provide an overview and update of domestic and international regulatory requirements and standards associated with manufacturing, consumer and industry use, and transportation of lithium ion battery cargo. Topics will also include current and future lithium ion battery safety challenges for regulatory agencies and standard setting organizations.

Panel 3: Lithium Ion Battery Applications & Safety in Transportation

Objective: This panel will discuss the application and safety aspects of lithium battery technology in various transportation modes. The integration of the technology into existing designs will be explored including design standards, advantages and risks associated with use, reliability and failure; and what future use is planned. The panel will also discuss safety management considerations and strategies for first responders.

[Jeroen D]

Well, it looks as if the Dreamliner is returning to the sky!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22334048

Jeroen

[frumpy]

Here are a few pics on the burned batteries... scary stuff:

http://avherald.com/h?article=45c377c5&opt=0

[mabe54]

Where's the Battery Charges in the scheme of things?

Cheers,

[Jeroen D]

Some interesting background info:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/07/travel/dreamliner-fix-behind-the-scenes/index.html

[Phil Bunch]

I found this article on the long-term history of Boeing aircraft, to be enjoyable:

http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/life/10-boeing-aircraft-changed-how-we-travel-247569?iid=article_sidebar

It's easy to lose perspective on the history and contributions of an individual or a company, once something stressful happens.  Boeing's first airliner grounding must have been very hard on their employees.  As a Boeing admirer, I certainly hope that the 787 fixes are definitive and that it turns out that they successfully implement the new lithium batteries.

[mabe54]

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_05_07_2013_p0-576804.xml&p=1

Ain't over yet.

 :roll:

Cheers,

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

The Washington-based NTSB needed a local company to do the work because lithium-ion battery cells cannot be shipped by air.

 :shock:

[Phil Bunch]

An update on the 787 lithium battery issues:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/business/japanese-pilots-worry-about-repaired-boeing-787-jets.html?ref=todayspaper

At first I was a little surprised that there are no "red alert - your lithium batteries are cool and OK" announcements, but I guess that would be silly.  One doesn't get any "device XYZ is OK" announcements for any other components.

I'm undoubtedly showing my ignorance, but I would think that any enclosed metal box could be quickly melted by burning lithium, especially if the metal is doing the enclosing.  The burning would provide a large amount of heat, and the metal's melting point temperature would soon be reached.

Also, I was surprised to read that assertions were made that seem to say or imply the batteries aren't important since there are other layers of backup in the plane's systems.  As best I can follow, these batteries are the backup systems and are what the plane will use to operate if the normal generators fail.  

I wonder if they fixed the situation that developed in Boston where the battery fire caused loss of smoke exhaust fans.  Perhaps that's what the new exhaust tube to the outside is supposed to do, without fan assist, assuming it doesn't melt.

[Sese]

Is there any public place where possible battery overheat problems on the 787 will be reported? Have any been reported since the modifications?

[mabe54]

It looks like they are waiting for the third is the charm incident and find out what is causing the over heating in the batteries. New aircraft's were piling up too fast to play the guessing game on the solution of the problem without any serious certainty. It is like a twisted "fail safe" intentional evaluation program. I am sure they have those batteries now rigged up with monitoring equipment of all sorts.

Will see,

[Jeroen D]

What with all the battery problems, these 787s get a lot of media attention.

All is not well yet, not necessarily battery related though.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/27/travel/boeing-787-dreamliner-air-con-fault/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

I guess on any new plane I guess you will always see some teething problems. Aside from the batteries, which were much beyond teething problems, I don't know if these incidents are extrodinary. They were sufficient to ground the respective planes though.

Jeroen

[frumpy]

A 787 caught fire while being parked:

https://twitter.com/goaround99/status/355724199689584642/photo/1

Bad, bad news for Boeing.

[Sese]

Looks like the aft crown area is affected.
http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/davidspalton/media/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20lee%20adamss%20MacBook%20Air/etz.jpg.html

https://twitter.com/PSpotting/status/355734304770379776/photo/1

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

It looks like they are waiting for the third is the charm incident and find out what is causing the over heating in the batteries.

If this was the battery, they got it.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45c377c5&opt=0

[mabe54]

Oh brother:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ethiopian-airlines-787-at-centre-of-heathrow-fire-alert-388243/

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2013/07/12/44662/boeing-facing-questions-after-more-787-issues.html

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/17980649/boeing-dreamliner-catches-fire-at-heathrow-airport/

Here we go again.

Cheers,

[Phil Bunch]

If this new fire is battery-related or charging system related, I predict that hell will have to freeze over several times before they will fly again...

But, I really love the 787 and am a hard-core Boeing fan, so I hope I'm wrong in my pessimism and predictions.

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Rumours ... rumours ... last rumour is that the aft roof has been burned through, while the APU battery is below the floor (in the same general area). So either this wasn't battery-related or the battery really got going. Both are equally bad news.


Hoppie