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Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 202
Location: The Netherlands
Stephane and Gary thanks !

@ Stephane. My understanding from the figure is that the non linearity doesn't play a role here.
The rough values/lines we are talking about here, are nearly linear in that part of the figure -and- more important i.m.o. the type of figure does "correct" for non-linearity with the readings on X- and Y- axis.

@Gary. THAT could be the case! I also came at a percentage of 35 % instead of the mentioned 25% , but did believe that on a scanned a page from an official manual a typo (ehhh... writo...) couldn't exist ...
Indeed it's handwritten, but that could also be official...
I did look in my old .. 767 manauls (= 1 meter bookshelf...) and found in -non- of the pages with all the graph's, any handwriting !

Hessel

p.s. And NOW back to the GREAT video's !!!
It's an old Boeing-rule that in a weekend at least 1 is produced .... ;)
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
Go Around video up - the first of two on the subject.

Cheers!

Peter
Member
Registered: Nov 2011
Posts: 84
Location: New Jersey
Peter these videos are excellent! Having a 744 captain giving instruction on procedures together with Hardy's manual really makes this sim the best PC program out there. Much appreciated thanks! :mrgreen:
_______________
Joe
Member
Registered: Jun 2014
Posts: 317
wow amazing videos, thank you so much :mrgreen:
Member
Registered: Jul 2009
Posts: 148
Location: Loomis California (near Sacramento)
Things were a lot simpler back in the 747-100 days when we just had to fly the airplane <grin>

Great teaching aids in these videos, much appreciated by this "old dog".
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 88
Location: EDDF
Hi Peter,

many thanks for the video 4).

Every time very interesting to hear and to watch.


How many go-arounds you made in your active pilot life?

greetings
Horst
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
Thanks, Horst

I don't think I ever had an "active" pilot life!
In terms of Go-Arounds - not many - probably countable on two hands..In long-haul you don't get many opportunities..
(Mostly as a result of close spacing on final, a couple of TCAS events from other aircraft, one or two minor technical issues..very little that was weather related...)

Cheers,

Peter.
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
400guy wrote
Things were a lot simpler back in the 747-100 days when we just had to fly the airplane <grin>

Great teaching aids in these videos, much appreciated by this "old dog".


You should have tried the 707 <g>
Peter
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
I think I may be able to finally settle this derate discussion as to whether the derate is linearly mathematical (or should it be mathematically linear?).

If you will trust me to quote from the Boeing FFPM for JAR-OPS (ie Europe) for the RB211 524 G-series..

"Regulations permit the use of up to 25% takeoff thrust
reduction for operation with assumed temperature
reduced thrust. Use of reduced thrust is not allowed on
runways contaminated with water, ice, slush or snow.
Use of assumed temperature reduced thrust is not
recommended if potential windshear conditions exist.
The assumed temperature reduced takeoff EPR is read
from the Max Takeoff EPR table at the assumed
temperature. The minimum allowable EPR for reduced
thrust, based on 25% takeoff thrust reduction, is shown
below. It is not recommended to set takeoff EPR lower
than the scheduled Climb EPR.

MAX TAKE OFF EPR FOR ACTUAL OAT:- 1.90, 1.80, 1.70, 1.60, 1.50, 1.40
MIN TAKE OF EPR ALLOWED:- 1.67, 1.59, 1.52, 1.45,1.37,1.30 respectively..

As they say- "Do the math" !
Perhaps you can construct your own table :-)

Britjet
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
Love the videos, thanks.

Re the GA, when you pause the video at 800' AGL after pushing TOGA, climb rate is 2750 fpm and the thrust briefly touches full GA thrust even though it's the single-push TOGA which aims for a climb rate of 2,000 fpm.

Then when pushing FLCH it goes to full thrust again, even though it's less than 1,000ft to altitude capture.

Is there a way to keep the thrust more constant and gentle throughout the TOGA procedure, up to and including acceleration and alt capture, just as there is on take-off using TO2/CL2 with VNAV for example?

Thanks,

M
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 5140
martinbaker wrote
Then when pushing FLCH it goes to full thrust again, even though it's less than 1,000ft to altitude capture.

You mean, FLCH should apply its 2-minute-rule when transitioning from the TO/GA pitch mode?

Should it do this? I don't know. But I can easily add this condition if someone confirms the real thing does it.

For the 2-minute-rule, the AFDS must record the current altitude in the moment when FLCH engages. This record is used to get the distance to the MCP altitude, and to calculate a suitable vertical speed (with 800 fpm being the minimum) for a 2-minute level change. It needs a starting point to get a steady reference until the MCP altitude is caputered.

In my current code, this rule is applied when transitioning from any of the following modes:
ALT
VNAV ALT
V/S (if current V/S is less than 300 fpm)
VNAV PTH (if current V/S is less than 300 fpm)

Intentionally not included on this list are VNAV SPD and TO/GA because they typically aren't tools to hold an altitude from which one would like to go away from. (And FLARE and G/S are irrelevant because only TO/GA can be engaged on them.)


Regards,

|-|ardy


Edit: I just tested the 2-minute-rule when transitioning from TO/GA to FLCH. 5000 was my MCP altitude. At 3000 I changed from TO/GA to FLCH, and the climb rate went down from 2000 fpm to 1000 fpm. That doesn't feel right. I'm on a go-around, I want to climb quickly; I'm not changing cruise levels. -- The nose will drop and the climb rate will decrease anyway when I increase my command speed for flap retraction.
« Last edit by Hardy Heinlin on Sun, 08 Feb 2015 09:38:16 +0000. »
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
I don't know Hardy - sorry. 1000fpm does seem a little low as you describe - is there actually a 2-minute rule as such? I don't remember seeing it anywhere..

martinbaker - well spotted on the TOGA thrust going to maximum. It will do this in certain circumstances and I will be covering this in detail in the next video..

Cheers,

Peter
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 227
Location: Sydney
Here is my poor runway attempt change (a couple mistakes), from San Fran LDA 28R (the situ that comes installed with PSX) after watching Captain BritJet's tutorial.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DPKc2IzAkQ
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
Thanks for responses. I'm interested in getting a really smooth GA, the sort that you might want when deciding an approach is unstable at 1,000 AGL - no emergency, no panic, plenty of time and don't want to worry the pax. The smoothest method I can find is inspired by BritJet's runway change video:

Disconnect AP
FDs off
FDs on
AP on
Dial MCP VS up to 2000
Flaps 20, gear up.
Engage heading mode (SEL or LNAV)
Passing accel height, AT off, VS down to 1500 or less
Set new speed in MCP
Retract flaps on schedule
Approaching target speed:
(a) if near level off alt, engage AT and SPD mode
(b) if further off engage FLCH (AT still off - I find that engaging FLCH with AT on results in full thrust and high VS, even if only 1,500ft to go. Then AT on & select SPD as alt is captured.)

Fiddly but ultra smooth!

A question: During a GA in v10.0.0 if VS is engaged from TOGA, THR mode remains unaltered. In v.10.0.2 - beta 12, engaging VS from TOGA changes from THR to SPD. Is the newer version correct?

Thanks,

M
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
New video out - Cold Weather Operations - very appropriate for me right now!
The second GA video will follow shortly..

I would like to extend my thanks to Garry Richards, and VisualPSX, for making it possible to link the scenery. Thanks Garry! (I will put some proper credits in place soon).

Cheers,

Peter
« Last edit by Britjet on Sun, 08 Feb 2015 22:43:32 +0000. »
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
martinbaker,

That will also be in the GA2 video!
Basically you have 2 options - one is to press the (dreaded) THR button, which will reduce to CLB (or CON) thrust.

A more passenger-friendly option is, as soon as you press TOGA - immediately press FLCH.
Once the aircraft is going in the right direction you can refine this for an even gentler climb if you want to, by using V/S.

Nearly-empty fuel tanks like this method as well!

Cheers,

Peter
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
Thanks Peter, I'll try those methods. Back in the 90s I was pax in a BA 747-100 which did a GA at KPHL - apparently ATC didn't give enough time to slow things down so the crew went around - but it was very smooth and comfortable: a steady increase in thrust and pitch and no roller-coaster feelings. Maybe in the -100s GAs were less aggressive. Thanks for help, Martin.
Member
Registered: May 2010
Posts: 843
Quote
I don't know Hardy - sorry. 1000fpm does seem a little low as you describe - is there actually a 2-minute rule as such? I don't remember seeing it anywhere..


It may be written as 125 seconds in some manuals. If the altitude change can be achieved in 125 seconds without full climb thrust, then it will do so.

Sometimes referred to as "smart FLCH". I couldn't find a direct reference in the 747-400 manuals, but the 125 seconds target is mentioned in 767 and 777 manuals.

Rgds
JHW
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
I've had a play with a few GAs using beta 18 and really like the feel (for what it's worth from an amateur.) After a single push TOGA the pitch up and climb is very smooth, then a press on the THR button (thanks for the tip Peter) before engaging FLCH for acceleration keeps the whole process quite gentle by contrast to the double-push "get me out of here" technique. Looking forward to the next video!

Thanks to Peter and, of course, Hardy!

M
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
PS - Question(s) for Peter: What's the reason BA uses Flaps 25 as standard for landings? Is it to make the transition to GA easier, i.e. approach speed closer to Flaps 20 ref speed? Are there any situations where BA would use Flaps 30?

Thanks, M.
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
Hi M,

25 flap - less thrust on approach = less noise.
Less flap = longer flap life between overhauls.

Flap 30 is used in BA for low viz autolands - to enable a better view over the nose with a slightly lower pitch angle, and for short runways or runways where you want to save on heating up the brakes (because you are flying a bit slower). Hot and/or high airfields would fit into this category.

GA2 video coming soon - just having a little battle with editing :-(

Peter
Member
Registered: Aug 2014
Posts: 375
Location: Camberley, UK
Second Go-Around video now uploaded.

I'm sorry that this is quite lengthy - 18 minutes. Much more than I had originally intended - - there were quite a few approaches to "shoot", as well as coverage of recent changes.
Feel free to fast-forward!

I will try to make future videos much "snappier"!

Cheers,

Peter
Member
Registered: Jul 2014
Posts: 67
Britjet wrote
I'm sorry that this is quite lengthy - 18 minutes. Much more than I had originally intended - - there were quite a few approaches to "shoot", as well as coverage of recent changes.
Feel free to fast-forward!


The longer the better as far as I'm concerned! Heading over to YouTube now - thanks!

M
Member
Registered: Apr 2012
Posts: 68
Hello Peter,

thanks again for doing so much with these training videos. I am always looking forward to learn something new.

Britjet wrote
I will try to make future videos much "snappier"!


As far as I am concerned, even 18 minutes fly be rather quickly, there is just so much of valuable information! I had the pleasure to be in Level D simulator for few hours, and it all seemed as a few minutes passed.

I am sure that all of us are quite happy and learn something useful every time (well at least most of us :) ).

Again, let me thank you for your time, effort, and great learning tool!

Cheers,
_______________
Andrej
Member
Registered: Sep 2014
Posts: 165
Location: Near Paris
Just finished watching your last one.
I am also really grateful for all those free lessons with a first class teacher !
Thanks indeed for all your efforts, they are very much appreciated !

Charles

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