Old 744 Forum

Archived posts

Lithium batteries in 787 may pose fire issues

Page: « < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Author Post
Member
Registered: Jan 2013
Posts: 318
Location: YSSY
Then perhaps they just fire proofed the battery bay to meet ETOPS 180 so it lasts for 3 hours before it melts through the plastic fuselage and sets the remainder of the plane on fire... :twisted: Just wrap it into sufficiently many layers of duct tape...
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 2449
Location: KTMB
No, it is TWO equal batteries, one for APU (and other things), one for the main systems. Without a battery most systems may have a problem. Boeing may have altered the system since the 744 but switching off the battery in mid-flight will usually give interesting effects.


Hoppie
Member
Registered: Jan 2013
Posts: 318
Location: YSSY
The 744 adheres to the dark cockpit philosophy. With the main battery down, the 787 adheres to the really dark cockpit philosophy... ;)
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 497
Another "in depth" article on the batteries:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22251756

Quote:
The two lithium-ion batteries are not used when the 787 is in flight.
Instead they are operational when the plane is on the ground and its engines are not turned on, and are used to power the aircraft's brakes and lights.
Unquote:

So these batteries are only used on the ground, just in case you wondered. So a lot of fuss about nothing really. Plane is fine, the aviation industry often doesn't find Root Causes to problems, fires etc.

Whatever malfunctions, just put it in a stainless steel box and we'll be fine. :lol:

It really makes you wonder what all the fuss was about??? :roll:

Jeroen
Member
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
I still think they should keep a watchful eye on the Battery Charges. Something might be weirdly funky about them. Do not have overly confidence in their maker either.

Cheers,
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 2449
Location: KTMB
Jeroen, although I normally trust the BBC, this is such a departure from Boeing standards that I doubt it.

No, technically these batteries may not be required if the engines are running and all busses are online, true. But that does not mean they are not used. They power the standby bus and a few other busses and if you would take them out, a whole Chrismas tree would light up on the warning panels. They are an essential component in the aircraft's electrical system, even more than in older generations aircraft, and this is exactly why they are Li-Ion.


Hoppie
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 944
_______________
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 944
A webcast is available for a two-day forum on lithium batteries, etc, in transportation:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/batteryforum/index.html

[EDIT:] PDFs, etc, of the presentations are here:

http://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/2013/batteryforum/presentations.html


Here's a summary of the agenda, taken from the above web site:
----------------------------------------

Panel 1: Design, Development, and Use of Lithium Ion Battery Technology

Objective: This panel will discuss the design, development, and performance of lithium ion batteries. The design and development discussion will focus on battery configurations; advantages and disadvantages based on chemistry, power stability, and energy density; physical and electrical protective devices; manufacturing procedures and best practices; and quality assurance. The battery performance discussion will explore failure modes and other performance issues. Discussions will also include the range of lithium ion battery manufacturing processes.

Panel 2: Regulations & Standards for Lithium Ion Batteries

Objective: This panel will provide an overview and update of domestic and international regulatory requirements and standards associated with manufacturing, consumer and industry use, and transportation of lithium ion battery cargo. Topics will also include current and future lithium ion battery safety challenges for regulatory agencies and standard setting organizations.

Panel 3: Lithium Ion Battery Applications & Safety in Transportation

Objective: This panel will discuss the application and safety aspects of lithium battery technology in various transportation modes. The integration of the technology into existing designs will be explored including design standards, advantages and risks associated with use, reliability and failure; and what future use is planned. The panel will also discuss safety management considerations and strategies for first responders.
_______________
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
« Last edit by Phil Bunch on Wed, 24 Apr 2013 21:14:54 +0000. »
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 497
Well, it looks as if the Dreamliner is returning to the sky!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22334048

Jeroen
Member
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
Location: Potsdam, Germany
Here are a few pics on the burned batteries... scary stuff:

http://avherald.com/h?article=45c377c5&opt=0
Member
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
Where's the Battery Charges in the scheme of things?

Cheers,
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 497
Some interesting background info:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/05/07/travel/dreamliner-fix-behind-the-scenes/index.html
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 944
I found this article on the long-term history of Boeing aircraft, to be enjoyable:

http://travel.cnn.com/explorations/life/10-boeing-aircraft-changed-how-we-travel-247569?iid=article_sidebar

It's easy to lose perspective on the history and contributions of an individual or a company, once something stressful happens. Boeing's first airliner grounding must have been very hard on their employees. As a Boeing admirer, I certainly hope that the 787 fixes are definitive and that it turns out that they successfully implement the new lithium batteries.
_______________
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Member
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/awx_05_07_2013_p0-576804.xml&p=1

Ain't over yet.

:roll:

Cheers,
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 2449
Location: KTMB
Quote
The Washington-based NTSB needed a local company to do the work because lithium-ion battery cells cannot be shipped by air.


:shock:
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 944
An update on the 787 lithium battery issues:

https://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/05/business/japanese-pilots-worry-about-repaired-boeing-787-jets.html?ref=todayspaper

At first I was a little surprised that there are no "red alert - your lithium batteries are cool and OK" announcements, but I guess that would be silly. One doesn't get any "device XYZ is OK" announcements for any other components.

I'm undoubtedly showing my ignorance, but I would think that any enclosed metal box could be quickly melted by burning lithium, especially if the metal is doing the enclosing. The burning would provide a large amount of heat, and the metal's melting point temperature would soon be reached.

Also, I was surprised to read that assertions were made that seem to say or imply the batteries aren't important since there are other layers of backup in the plane's systems. As best I can follow, these batteries are the backup systems and are what the plane will use to operate if the normal generators fail.

I wonder if they fixed the situation that developed in Boston where the battery fire caused loss of smoke exhaust fans. Perhaps that's what the new exhaust tube to the outside is supposed to do, without fan assist, assuming it doesn't melt.
_______________
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Member
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 17
Is there any public place where possible battery overheat problems on the 787 will be reported? Have any been reported since the modifications?
Member
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
It looks like they are waiting for the third is the charm incident and find out what is causing the over heating in the batteries. New aircraft's were piling up too fast to play the guessing game on the solution of the problem without any serious certainty. It is like a twisted "fail safe" intentional evaluation program. I am sure they have those batteries now rigged up with monitoring equipment of all sorts.

Will see,
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 497
What with all the battery problems, these 787s get a lot of media attention.

All is not well yet, not necessarily battery related though.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/27/travel/boeing-787-dreamliner-air-con-fault/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

I guess on any new plane I guess you will always see some teething problems. Aside from the batteries, which were much beyond teething problems, I don't know if these incidents are extrodinary. They were sufficient to ground the respective planes though.

Jeroen
Member
Registered: Jun 2009
Posts: 275
Location: Potsdam, Germany
A 787 caught fire while being parked:

https://twitter.com/goaround99/status/355724199689584642/photo/1

Bad, bad news for Boeing.
Member
Registered: Jul 2012
Posts: 17
Looks like the aft crown area is affected.
http://s1237.photobucket.com/user/davidspalton/media/Photobucket%20Desktop%20-%20lee%20adamss%20MacBook%20Air/etz.jpg.html

https://twitter.com/PSpotting/status/355734304770379776/photo/1
« Last edit by Sese on Fri, 12 Jul 2013 17:23:29 +0000. »
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 2449
Location: KTMB
Quote
It looks like they are waiting for the third is the charm incident and find out what is causing the over heating in the batteries.


If this was the battery, they got it.

http://www.avherald.com/h?article=45c377c5&opt=0
Member
Registered: Jan 2010
Posts: 17
Oh brother:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/ethiopian-airlines-787-at-centre-of-heathrow-fire-alert-388243/

http://www.travelweekly.co.uk/Articles/2013/07/12/44662/boeing-facing-questions-after-more-787-issues.html

http://nz.news.yahoo.com/a/-/world/17980649/boeing-dreamliner-catches-fire-at-heathrow-airport/

Here we go again.

Cheers,
« Last edit by mabe54 on Fri, 12 Jul 2013 18:06:33 +0000. »
Member
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 944
If this new fire is battery-related or charging system related, I predict that hell will have to freeze over several times before they will fly again...

But, I really love the 787 and am a hard-core Boeing fan, so I hope I'm wrong in my pessimism and predictions.
_______________
Best wishes,

Phil Bunch
Moderator
Registered: May 2009
Posts: 2449
Location: KTMB
Rumours ... rumours ... last rumour is that the aft roof has been burned through, while the APU battery is below the floor (in the same general area). So either this wasn't battery-related or the battery really got going. Both are equally bad news.


Hoppie

Page: « < 1 2 3 4 5 >

Old 744 Forum is powered by UseBB 1 Forum Software