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Author Topic: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)  (Read 846 times)

vnangli

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Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« on: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 20:43 »
I was checking out this online content. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crosswind_landing (Refer the image for De-Crab)

Is there a more detailed content online that explains the effects of CROSSWINDS during the APPROACH and how counter/overcome (maneuvers like YAW and ROLL required) such forces and remain on TRACK till the touch down.

Here is my situation, 7-8NM from Touchdown (28R - KORD); 2500 Feet above. At about this point, I disengage A/P and A/T with full flaps deployed and landing gear down. The crosswind of 16 Kts is from SOUTHWEST. I have been using a combination of YAW and ROLL as I start noticing deviation in the LOCALIZER pointer, but have been drifting and unable to remain on the extended CENTERLINE
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

jcomm

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Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #2 on: Thu, 30 Jul 2020 22:43 »
Don't touch the rudders unless you have an engine out.
If you use the flight director, it will give you nice hints.

Did I say don't touch the rudders?

Only just before touchdown, kick the rudders to align the fuselage with the runway. Or even a bit later if the runway is wet. Or not at all if it is iced  :-)


Hoppie

PS. Don't touch the rudders.

Dirk Schepmann

  • Join date: Aug 2014
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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #3 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 13:16 »
Practice makes perfect.  :) I often practice with the SITU file in which you land at runway 25C in Frankfurt with real weather.

I find it sometimes tricky to make good crosswind landings, especially if the sidewind component is greater than 8-10 kts.

It is important to use ailerons only (as Jeroen pointed out, don't use rudder) and make small corrections. That's the difficult thing: you have to make small but consequent corrections, but avoid chasing the flight director. When the wind velocity or direction is changing close to the ground, it can get really nasty.

I find it very useful to use the track indicator (the small grey "hair" in the outside view) to align the aircraft with the runway. Keep the wind correction angle as long as possible. I usually initiate the flare at 30-40 ft and wait until the "10" callout. Then I kick in the rudder and try to align the aircraft.

Sometimes I manage to land on the centerline, but often I find myself 10 ft to the right or left. I think that's acceptable.

What I find difficult is to coordinate everything because it all happens within 2 or 3 seconds:
- initiating flare
- thrust reduction
- nose up command to compensate for thrust reduction
- rudder application just before touchdown

Best regards,
Dirk

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #4 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 15:31 »
And yes, I have seen professional pilots, in a sim running PS1.3 and a mediocre yoke, flying a crosswind approach with one hand on the yoke almost without visibly moving it. Tiny bit left. Tiny bit right. Tiny bit up. Repeat. It's not even noticeable that their FD deviates.

Grrrrr.



Hoppie

skelsey

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #5 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 16:01 »
During the approach the flight deck will have to be offset slightly upwind of the centreline in order to allow for the main wheels to touch down on the centreline.

As others have said, the preferred method generally is to use the 'crab' method, laying off the drift by selecting a heading in to the wind as you come down the approach, then 'de-crabbing' in the flare, just before touchdown, using the rudder to align the nose with the centreline.

I'm personally not a fan of the term 'kick' as that implies a violent/rapid movement. A smooth squeeze of the rudder pedal is all that is necessary -- in the flare, look at the end of the runway (you should be anyway!) and gently squeeze the rudder to smoothly bring the nose of the aeroplane around in to line with the centreline. As you do so, you will need to smoothly feed in opposite aileron (in to the wind) in coordination with the rudder input to keep the wings level (because the yaw induces a rolling moment) which is really quite critical in an aeroplane like the B747 as if too much roll is allowed to develop it is very easy to scrape an outboard pod! Keeping the rudder input smooth and progressive will aid in properly coordinating the aileron input.

Note that obviously as soon as you start to remove the crab the aircraft will drift downwind (as you no longer have a force opposing the drift) so it is important to do so at the latest stage just before main gear touchdown.

Equally important not to stop flying the aeroplane after touchdown either - again in to wind aileron will be necessary to keep the wings level during the rollout.

vnangli

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #6 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 17:33 »
And yes, .... Tiny bit left. Tiny bit right. Tiny bit up. Repeat. It's not even noticeable that their FD deviates.

Hoppie
Practice makes perfect.  :) I often practice with the SITU file in which you land at runway 25C in Frankfurt with real weather.

I find it sometimes tricky to make good crosswind landings, especially if the sidewind component is greater than 8-10 kts.

It is important to use ailerons only (as Jeroen pointed out, don't use rudder) and make small corrections. That's the difficult thing: you have to make small but consequent corrections.

I find it very useful to use the track indicator (the small grey "hair" in the outside view) to align the aircraft with the runway. Keep the wind correction angle as long as possible. I usually initiate the flare at 30-40 ft and wait until the "10" callout. Then I kick in the rudder and try to align the aircraft.

Sometimes I manage to land on the centerline, but often I find myself 10 ft to the right or left. I think that's acceptable.

What I find difficult is to coordinate everything because it all happens within 2 or 3 seconds:
- initiating flare
- thrust reduction
- nose up command to compensate for thrust reduction
- rudder application just before touchdown

Best regards,
Dirk

Dirk, you nailed the points for me....Especially, the last four points...But, I am way way behind you...I am not even able get to situation where I am 50feet from touch down and able to meet the last four points you have listed. To get into a little more detail of the situation I am trying to master is explained below

Lets say, I am tracking on the extend centerline till I disengage A/P and A/T. There is crosswind of 16Kts from SOUTHWEST. After disengaging A/T and A/P I keep the throttle position unchanged. I continue for a couple of seconds, I notice the LOCALIZER deviation. This is when I am trying to understand if I should use AILERON and ROLL...When I ROLL and momentarily spot myself on the Extended centerline, I am not able to figure out how to maintain track close to the EXTENDED CENTERLINE...And then I keep drifting LEFT RIGHT.

But your experiences shared is helping me understand my practices better..Positive side is, I am grasping quite a lot..
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #7 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 20:28 »
Remember the localizer is a horizontal position indicator. If you drift left of localizer, you need a bit of roll to the right so your heading moves a bit to the right, then you roll in the opposite direction to get your heading back where it was to maintain the localizer. It is a balancing act.

Switch the FD on (not the AP) and follow the cross hairs. That will teach you. It also has accelleration sensors so it tells you trends before you see them on the localizer.


Hoppie

vnangli

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #8 on: Fri, 31 Jul 2020 21:05 »
It is a balancing act.

Hoppie

Seems like there is more practice required from myside...Hoppie, I am very thankful to all the feedback and guidance.

Have a great weekend
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

Toga

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #9 on: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 10:29 »
Squeeze don’t kick. Crab until the flare.

Markus Vitzethum

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #10 on: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 13:54 »
I know that the recommended practice is to crab until flare. (Though, I recall that didn't work out well when I flew in the sim with Jeroen with 25kts of crosswind set by Joerg. *boom*)

When I was in the 747-8i sim three years ago I practiced this technique a lot in PSX and then tried it in the full flight sim. KSFO landing 28L with 25 kts crosswind, and thanks due to the PSX training, I could walk away from that landing and be fairly happy with it.

But then the instructor (apparently, an old-style retired DC10 flight engineer) said: why all this crabbing? Why don't you fly a side slip? So, I tried again, challenge taken, again 25 kts x-winds, now this time with nicely crossed controls all the way in. Guess what? It worked even better.  ;) ;D


p.s.
My next approach was the rarely used KSFO Visual 01R right approach (circling from LOC28L). No crosswind (25 kts on the head). Much more fun!
« Last edit: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 21:42 by Markus Vitzethum »

localiser

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #11 on: Sat, 1 Aug 2020 18:58 »
Quote
why all this crabbing? Why don't you fly a side slip?

why do anything at all? the 747 is certified to land while crabbed up to the crosswind guideline speeds!  ;D

Whatever you do, remember: plenty of aileron!

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #12 on: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 12:51 »
I know that the recommended practice is to crab until flare. (Though, I recall that didn't work out well when I flew in the sim with Jeroen with 25kts of crosswind set by Joerg. *boom*)

No, that was slightly different, for as far as I remember.

We had a failed #4 engine and came in to EHAM 24 and feeling adventurous, we decided NOT to remove the crab. At the moment of touchdown, the sim abruptly froze and displayed LATERAL FORCES EXCEEDED. No satisfying effects except for some noise from "down below" that was sort of alarming.

The real fun came afterwards. We reset the sim for a departure from 24, so basically remove all speeds and settle down. Go! Push all throttles forward, no need to check, we're having fun.

#4 still shut down...

That ended in the ditch in about 8 seconds.

But now I think longer, why crab with a failed engine?

Ah well. We did lots of silly things  :-D


Hoppie



http://www.hoppie.nl/galleries/gppm5/24.html

(I don't have a photo of this sim session with me and Markus in the seats; this left seater is Thorsten)
« Last edit: Sun, 2 Aug 2020 13:24 by Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers »

vnangli

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #13 on: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 20:45 »
My question might sound a little silly, but please bear with me...

Okay, my latest challenge is "ROLLing" during crosswind.

I am 2500 feet above, 7NM miles landing on 28R (KORD). At the point of disengaging the A/P and autothrottle, I notice I am not on Extended centerline (I am to the left of the MAGENTA diamond) and there is crosswind (16-18) from the RIGHT. When I apply AILERONs at this point, it seems like I am having a Fishtail effect (excusing me for not using the technical word). Do I still not use RUDDERS at this point?

Don't touch the rudders unless you have an engine out.
If you use the flight director, it will give you nice hints.

Did I say don't touch the rudders?


PS. Don't touch the rudders.

How would lining up on the extended centerline be achieved, strictly with ROLL and when there is a crosswind?
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

Dirk Schepmann

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #14 on: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:40 »
I am 2500 feet above, 7NM miles landing on 28R (KORD). At the point of disengaging the A/P and autothrottle, I notice I am not on Extended centerline (I am to the left of the MAGENTA diamond) and there is crosswind (16-18) from the RIGHT. When I apply AILERONs at this point, it seems like I am having a Fishtail effect (excusing me for not using the technical word). Do I still not use RUDDERS at this point?

How would lining up on the extended centerline be achieved, strictly with ROLL and when there is a crosswind?

Not sure, what you mean with fishtail effect... but basically you have to fly an angle into the wind (the crab angle).

So when the localizer starts to drift away from the center, you‘ll initiate a slight turn into the wind. When the localizer starts to move back, you‘ll change the heading back towards the runway heading, but just a little bit. Enough to keep the localizer centered. Often you have to repeat this a few times until you find the necessary Wind correction angle.

The stronger the crosswind is, the greater the correction angle is... it might even look scary at strong crosswinds. But under most circumstances it will be a small correction angle which can be easily corrected with the rudder at or immediately after touchdown.

I’d suggest to create a training scenario with constant crosswind with 10-15 kts. Fly it often, get a feel for the sim and your hardware. And be gentle with the controls, make frequent small corrections instead of big corrections.

Good luck!

Will

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #15 on: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:42 »
Quote
How would lining up on the extended centerline be achieved, strictly with ROLL and when there is a crosswind?

No need for the rudders. When you smoothly bank with the ailerons, the heading will change, and that will eventually put the aircraft on a different track. When it is on a track that leads to the runway, roll the wings smoothly back to level. You don't need to use the rudder to roll into a bank, hold the bank until you are on the desired track, and roll the wings level again.

Remember that with a crosswind, the nose of the aircraft won't be pointed at the runway itself, because you'll be flying in a crab.
Will /Chicago /USA

vnangli

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #16 on: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 22:58 »

Not sure, what you mean with fishtail effect... but basically you have to fly an angle into the wind (the crab angle).

Good luck!

CRAB angle is the term I should have used...
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #17 on: Thu, 6 Aug 2020 23:48 »
Try it this way.

Fly 10 nm out and let the AP intercept and track the localizer. Then closely monitor what it does to remain on the localizer.

Note the crab angle. Your nose points not at the runway, but left or right of it, this is your heading. Your over the ground track should be dead center on the runway. The difference is the wind correction. No bank required! Just your heading.

To make small heading corrections, keeping the track aligned with the runway, the AP makes small bank corrections, left and right. But almost invisible. Look at the FD and the aileron positions or the yoke. It's small. Your track and heading stay almost static and the plane only wobbles a bit.

Then once you know the numbers, disconnect the AP and do it yourself. Just the localizer. Forget the glideslope.

Fly 99.99% of the approach just using this technique, crab into wind. You can as well use a VOR radial or any other straight line over the ground with wind from the side.

Only just just just before touchdown, you have to do something to avoid touching down with too much crab. You're not a B52. One smooth squeeze of rudder to align the aircraft with the runway, and onto the tarmac. Flying without a crab means drifting aside, so you want to basically not do that. Go from plane to car and become a car just at touchdown, simply stated.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1lpoZDjt00      <-- B52

Hoppie
« Last edit: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 00:03 by Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers »

vnangli

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #18 on: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 02:31 »
Try it this way.

Fly 10 nm out and let the AP intercept and track the localizer. Then closely monitor what it does to remain on the localizer.

Hoppie

I am going to do this exercise and will have to put the screen recording in my PC to work and record the values to repeat it when I will disengage AP.

Now, I will record the values (approximate values) of the CRAB angle from the Heading and Track indicator (PFD) or from ND. How can I get (record) the Bank angle values apart from observing the Flight Director bar in the PFD?? You have given me a good home assignment  :)
Everytime I see a 747, it makes me think how can this thing even move....Few minutes later, I see it flying...

Will

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Re: Crosswind landing techniques for Dummies :-)
« Reply #19 on: Fri, 7 Aug 2020 02:33 »
Further advice: Let's say you see you are on the localizer but drifting to the right. So you want to turn left to stop the drift.

1. Apply left aileron and roll gently to a 5 degree bank. No rudder required.
2. Hold the 5 degree bank until you see the CDI stop drifting away and then ever-so-slightly start to drift back.
3. Roll the wings level, watching the CDI move back on course.
4. Then when the CDI is just about centered, roll gently to a 5 degree bank to the right to freeze the CDI.
5. Now roll wings level, and you are tracking the localizer.
6. Repeat as necessary, with smaller motions as you get closer to the station.
Will /Chicago /USA