Toe brakes.. again ...

[cagarini]

I've mostly quit using my Saitek toe brakes axis for that purpose when using PSX.

Even if I set a "null zone" at the beginning, it's still very easy to hit the left or right one a bit too much, and here goes the 744 veering madly on the rollout, or duing taxi.

My option these days is to use my trigger button in the T16000 and make it control "brakes both", because in that case the sim smoothly increases the ammount of applied brakes and does it simmetricaly.

So, again - I believe I myself and maybe others mentioned it before - wouldn't it be possible to add some kind of "modulation" just as there is one for the pitch channel ?

Users with expensive setups, probably beneffiting from hydraulic dumping, could leave it at the linear setting, while others might filter the otherwse easily overdone input.

[Dirk Schepmann]

For me, the rudder function of the pedals is more important than the brakes. Asymmetrical braking is something you don't really need in a home sim (in my opinion).

I have therefore made a compromise in most sims and assigned both individual pedals to ,,both brakes". This solves all calibration issues, hardware limitations etc.  It effectively stops the aircraft from veering during rollout or rejected takeoff.

Not very realistic of course, but the cheap pedals are not very realistic, either.

Just my 2 cents,
Dirk

[Hardy Heinlin]

... wouldn't it be possible to add some kind of "modulation" just as there is one for the pitch channel ?

Is possible. Set the center point of a brake pedal axis to a value above or below 0, e.g. -500 or 500. This way you will get a knee in the translation line. Set this value individually for each axis, so that their motions on the brake pedal indication are equal. Each pot is different, unless you buy some from Rupert Neve for 1000 $.

[cagarini]

Yes Hardy, that's what I have been using since you suggested it a long time ago ( wow, this time I did remember :-) ) as per the screen bellow, but still, both segments around the "knee" are linear... and that's the problem.

When I use the joystick button for "toe brakes both", I see you smoothly vary the application of the toe brakes, and that makes the difference, I guess.

[Martin Baker]

I have the same issue with my plastic rudder pedals - so I use them for rudder only. My solution is to assign the brakes to the "throttle" bit of my Logitech extreme pro, which I also use as the tiller control (not as yoke or throttles) and have the info tags displayed on one of the monitors so I can see, rather than feel, what's going on. It's particularly helpful for taxying, where fine control of brakes is needed. M

[Hardy Heinlin]

... both segments around the "knee" are linear... and that's the problem.

If you want an exponential curve that starts so flat that there's no output at all within the first 30% of the input range, then your exponential curve won't help either. In that case only an increased neutral zone at the outer end will help, e.g. 700 instead of 1000, or -700 instead of -1000, depending on your axis direction.

But I understand that all this plastic gear is a joke. Imagine steering a real car on the highway with these fragile springs and pots. Imagine using the same plastic on a real jumbo at 100 knots ...


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[cagarini]

Good hint HH,

just make it more clear for me - outer end ...

In my case the full forward toe brake reads "1000" in the callibration window, while full aft ( no braking ) reads -1000. You're suggesting I should use -700 instead of -1000 at the "bottom" or 700 instead of 1000 at the top ?

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Displacing the end stops only reduces the throw of the pedals. It is best to have them calibrated so that their full travel matches the full travel on the pedal position display. Only if you want to hard limit your maximum brake pressure, it makes sense to move the top further out, beyond what your USB actually delivers.

You can only play with the center value to create something that is not linear. Instead you will have two linear segments, with a knee in the middle. It will allow you to create a segment that is better suited to modulate, and a segment that is more give-it-all-it-can.

Hoppie

[cagarini]

Yep Jeroen,

that's what I do when I set the center to "650". Still, the linearity and the "plastic" make the outcome far from realistic, and made me opt for the "button" solution with the "toe brakes both" assignment in the USB settings :-)

[Hardy Heinlin]

Good hint HH,

just make it more clear for me - outer end ...

In my case the full forward toe brake reads "1000" in the callibration window, while full aft ( no braking ) reads -1000. You're suggesting I should use -700 instead of -1000 at the "bottom" or 700 instead of 1000 at the top ?

Set your full aft threshold to -400 instead of -1000. This way your first 30% of USB pedal deflection will cause no deflection in PSX.

To get a linear translation with -400 at the aft point, set the center point to 700. Or just click the 50% button; it should automatically set 700 when the forward is 1000 and aft is -400.

Math:

Full USB input range is -1000 to +1000 --> Sum: 2000

Subtract 30% from 2000 --> Result: 1400

Leave forward point at +1000 --> Go 1400 units back --> Result: -400

Linear center between +1000 and -400 --> +700

If you have problems with max deflection, reduce the forward point as well, e.g. from +1000 to +800. In that case set the center to +200 because that's the center between +800 and -400.


|+|ardy

[cagarini]

Ok HH,

thank you for your suggestions - will give it a try !

[Martin Baker]

I now have a question: do the purple lines on the info tags represent the movement of the brake pedal, physically, or the amount of brake actually applied? (If that makes sense.) M

[Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers]

Pedal positions. Just as the yoke shows yoke deflection. What the actual flight surfaces and brakes do, is different and depends on a lot of other things such as hydraulics.

The magenta indicators are only there to give you additional feedback on your inputs, not on the effects thereof. But for sim calibration, these are exactly what you want to look at, and not for example EICAS indications.

[Martin Baker]

Pedal positions. Just as the yoke shows yoke deflection. What the actual flight surfaces and brakes do, is different and depends on a lot of other things such as hydraulics.

The magenta indicators are only there to give you additional feedback on your inputs, not on the effects thereof. But for sim calibration, these are exactly what you want to look at, and not for example EICAS indications.

Thank you, Jeroen! M

[JRBarrett]

I used to own CH pedals, and after years of frustration, finally got rid of them for all the reasons discussed here. In PSX in particular it was very difficult to prevent potentiometer noise from causing one or the other brake from being slightly "on", even when not touching them. With improved calibration routines in later updates of PSX, it was a bit better, but they still tended to be "grabby" when trying to apply manual braking on landing.

I have replaced them with the Thrustmaster TPR pendular rudder pedals, which I can heartily recommend.

https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/09/thrustmaster-tpr-is-the-king-of-mass-market-flight-sim-pedals/

These are not inexpensive by any means, but are built like real pedals. No plastic - 15 pounds of solid metal, with Hall effect sensors. The braking action in PSX is superb - very linear response as they are depressed.

They also work extremely well in P3D and X-Plane - especially with GA aircraft where the rudder is used much more often than in an airliner.

[Hardy Heinlin]

I just looked at the photos. I think the mechanical design is brilliant. Due to the pendular construction, the control arc is softer near the center and stronger near full deflection, so it won't bump when making fine adjustments in the center area. In a conventional parallelogram the control arc is reversed: Fine adjustments in the center area require great force to get out of the bump stop, and movements in the full deflection area require less force.


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[JRBarrett]

The unit has two adjustable springs to set the force required to move the pedals. The action is exactly like what one would experience in a real aircraft. The brake portion of the pedal is hinged at the bottom, and the vertical angle of the pedal can be set to anything from "flat" to "upright". When using the pedals for ground steering, as long as the toes are kept at the bottom of the pedal, there is no danger of accidentally applying brake pressure.

Top notch design all-around. I purchased mine through Amazon about one year ago for about $450. Currently most vendors are reporting "no stock", which is probably due in part to the Covid19 situation.

My flight simulator desk is in a room with a tile floor, but I put the pedal assembly on a small throw rug, and it does not move at all even with full deflection due to the weight and broad base.

[cagarini]

Looks like a great setup indeed JR, thought too expensive :-/

I did adopt HH's suggestion of setting -400 / 700 / 1000 in the toe brake axis and it works acceptably, even with my cheap plastic setup ...