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P3D vs X Plane as scenery generator

Started by Ton van Bochove, Thu, 14 Nov 2019 22:06

Ton van Bochove

Hi guys,

I know which one to choose from a scenery point of view. But what are the pro's and con's of both simulations  in conjunction with PSX? Which one is smoother, user friendly, better or worse.....?
I would be delighted to hear some opinions.

Ton
Ton

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

I have near-zero experience with scenery generators, as you probably know.

In this particular case you may want to be patient and wait for the newly introduced MSFS2020, which most likely will bring a new ecosystem that may become very interesting very rapidly.


Hoppie

Hammerstan

#2
I have made some P3D / XP11 comparison videos using PSX (ignore the stuttering as this was an issue at my end). 

Left hand side: P3D + ORBX + Active Sky (Connecting to PSX with PSX.NET.P3D.ExternalSim)
Right hand side: XP11 + Ortho4XP + default wx (Connecting to PSX with xView)

KCGX: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242688629
YBAS: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242688884
KSLC: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/242688296

In terms of pros/cons:

It really comes down to which visuals you have a preference for - XP11 or P3D. 

Most PSX users seem to use P3D and therefore there is more support for P3D/PSX apps.

I use XP11 (connected with xView) largely because of the ability to import Ortho4XP tiles, easier multi-monitor support and I was over P3D crashing.  I have found xView very smooth (ie not noticeable) with limited connectivity issues.  The main issues I have encountered are that xView doesn't support transmitting ground speed to some ATC clients (vatsim, pilotedge) and is no longer supported, there is less XP11 add-on airport scenery available compared to P3D and XP11 only supports a single GPU. 

I suspect the community will transfer to MSFS when released so we will all be on a common platform again.

RogerH

#3
I'm also an XP11 fan - simply because I like the artwork better. I'm also an Ortho4Xp aficionado like Hammerstan.

With the imminent arrival of Vulkan, Xplane will be able to exploit multiple cores (with my marginal rig I'm hoping this will mean my frame rates will no longer be hovering around the dreaded 20 mark) - so that particular drawback will disappear.

But the majority use P3D - there must be a reason, but I just cannot go back to flat runways, lol!

Whether MFS2020 will be accessible to those of us on older, less powerful, systems remains to be seen - and the costing model is still to be unveiled. It's generally accepted that it'll be a subscription basis. For those who regularly spend on addons etc. this may not be much of an issue, but those of us who have to save up for stuff may find it too much of a drain on limited disposable monthly income!

I guess we'll wait and see.

Cheers,

Roger.

brian747

#4
Quote...what are the pro's and con's of both simulations in conjunction with PSX?

First of all, may I say that I entirely concur with all the wise words of m'learnéd friends Hammerstan and RogerH.     

In addition to which, and speaking as a user of both scenery generators, I might make the following observations (just my opinion; and no doubt some would disagree).   

P3D, first of all.

There are a greater number of options and add-ons available, although the emphasis here is firmly on payware. You get cloud shadows, but — unlike in the PSX universe — all runways are dead flat. The biggest weakness is that deep in its guts P3D is still based on the old Microsoft graphics engine, which needs active assistance and encouragement if it is to make effective use of more than a single processor (still — in these days when more and more processors in the CPU are becoming the norm).

From the PSX perspective you have a choice of link programs to P3D: ExternalSim (freeware) or WidePSX (payware). ExternalSim also gives you access to the whole magnificent stable of PSX.Net and PSX Dispatch applications: WidePSX limits you to a (supplied) POSKY-derived puppet aircraft in P3D — but it also comes with additions for weather aloft, ground handling and pushback, and other functions. Both link programs work well and give you smooth movement in P3D.

Now X-Plane 11.

The most noticeable difference that hit me straight away was the prevalence of freeware: if cash outlay is a significant factor then this could be relevant — and that profusion of freeware might also explain why there are fewer payware airports available than there are for P3D. X-Plane makes better use of multiple processors than P3D does, but nonetheless if you set the sliders too far to the right (and especially if you make heavy use of ortho scenery or UHD mesh) it is also just as capable of bringing powerful hardware to its knees as is P3D.

But the runways, thankfully, are no longer flat.    (Except in cases where they really are flat, of course).

The (relatively) imminent arrival of Vulkan should also improve framerates by around 10 fps on nVidia or more on AMD cards (or so we are promised by LR). And compared to P3D I have to aver that I already get more fps with X-Plane — on the basis of a comparison when taking off from Aerosoft's Heathrow in both sims, anyway. But, as ever, YMMV....   

The slight caveat here would be that although the huge number of freeware airports is a great-to-have factor (and some of them are extremely impressive, comparing well with some payware), nonetheless don't be too surprised if, after placing your aircraft at the gate in PSX and then connecting to X-P, you discover your aircraft parked with some parts of it inside a terminal or intersecting another aircraft. Most X-P freeware airport creators appear not to have been <*cough*> working from accurate charts, shall we say.   

But the X-P views are indeed lovely, especially if you adjust the weather options to push the haze out from the default 25m to, say, 75m and then add a little correction to increase saturation. And of course when it comes to night lighting the views far exceed anything that P3D can do even with the assistance of the ultra-expensive Black Marble add-ons — simply superb.

But no seasons, by default    (although there is a free, but slightly convoluted to implement, add-on for snow). And there's support for only one graphics card, as noted by Hammerstan.

When connecting to PSX, then XView (via XPUIPC) is the name of the game. And XView works with X-Plane with the same smoothness as its counterparts do with P3D. From the user-friendliness point of view, I followed the manual when setting it up and after less than five minutes it worked first time, and has continued to do so ever since. However, XView is admittedly a little elderly and in need of an update, and so Hammerstan's comments about support, and connectivity to some clients, should be kept in mind. You might be interested in these forum comments from jcomm about installing XView: http://aerowinx.com/forum/topic.php?post=21426#post21426


Summary

I'm trying to focus on the primary issue that Ton asked about — user-friendliness. Certainly, it takes me longer to climb aboard a vlight in P3Dv4 than it does in X-Plane (even though I rely heavily on the use of SIMstarter NG to load all the multiplicity of P3D add-ons for me). But there's no perceptible difference in smoothness as driven by PSX, although I do notice that in general I'm getting better fps from X-P (and a further improvement is promised, as previously mentioned).

In general, X-P add-ons do feel... less developed than their P3D equivalents, it has to be said: compare Better Pushback with all the bells and whistles of GSX, for example, or (less convincingly, since these are payware) X-Camera with ChasePlane or Traffic Global with UTL. But taken overall there is also a perceptible difference in the amount of cash outlay involved, and speaking as a member of the group characterised by RogerH as "those of us who have to save up for stuff" that's also important to me since it makes X-P feel more user-friendly than P3D. Although I ought to qualify that comment by pointing to Laminar Research's statement of the recommended system to run X-Plane:

Recommended Hardware Requirements:  from https://www.x-plane.com/kb/x-plane-11-system-requirements/
CPU: Intel Core i5 6600K at 3.5 ghz or faster
Memory: 16-24 GB RAM or more
Video Card: a DirectX 12-capable video card from NVIDIA, AMD or Intel with at least 4 GB VRAM (GeForce GTX 1070 or better or similar from AMD)

As an old hand at tuning *ix VLDB systems I tend to keep a wary eye on my memory usage, and so I feel that their suggestion about a graphics card with 4Gb VRAM might sometimes be insufficient, at least in more complex environments such as large airports near cities (not everyone vlies VFR all the time, will Laminar Research and others please note!    ). However, I do appreciate their honesty in stipulating "16-24 GB RAM or more" for main memory, since that accords with my observations — but having said that, I have to admit that, once it's loaded with all the bells and whistles, a P3D environment can also be pushing towards the 16Gb boundary....

(One final comment, on the subject of MS 2020. Even apart from the unnatural prospect of paying Microsoft every time I vly (which just ain't gonna happen) I do find myself reluctant to have any trust in Micro$oft after they summarily abandoned simmers some years ago — and I have certain dark suspicions about why they are courting us so assiduously at the moment. But regardless of that, the fact is that for the first time in my 40 years of simming I'm at last happy with the views I have, both in P3D and (especially, I have to admit) in X-P — right now. Just sayin'...  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ).

Anyway, I hope that helps,

Cheers,

Brian
(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

RogerH

Wow! You live and learn. That emoticon!

How do you get the high-level dash and the thingy between the brackets?

\_(")_/

brian747

<grin>  I cheat.

Those particular characters are from a non-standard character set. So I just copy and paste the whole thing, save it as UTF8, and keep the ASCII text file handy on my desktop. *Much* easier....   

Here's a link to the text file, to save you the trouble. https://www.dropbox.com/s/svnj7qkzmaj5zm7/shrug.txt?dl=0

Cheers,

Brian
(Author of "The Big Tutorial" for PS1, and "Getting started with PSX" Parts 1, 2, and 3).

Ton van Bochove

Guys, thank you very much for your opinions, I made my choice ;-). Brian I nominate your contribution for an eternal position in the Tutorial section....this is stuff for rookies ;-)
Ton

RRVyper

One other annoyance with X-plane - you are currently limited in the vertical size of the output window, at least on Windows. FSX and/or P3D do not have this limitation.

Randy