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Nav Lights

Started by tim96, Mon, 28 Oct 2019 16:33

tim96

Dear all,

just a question for interest. I have noticed that almost every Lufthansa plane doesn't have the Nav Lights (red, green and white on the tail) on during daytime, while for example United Airlines have it on all the time. I am pretty sure about that notice. Also i mentioned that the logo sign is off at nightime by UPS 747's and Fedex 777's. Maybe I am totally wrong, but i think it's a little bit confusing. I always thought there is an ATC rule for the Lights, or is it Airline specific? May the Pilots forget it? ;) Like always thanks a lot for answering in advance!

Best Regards
Volker

andmiz

There are rules about nav and beacon lights.

Nav lights must be used.  It's not an ATC rule, rather aviation regulations. 
Logo lights should be used at night.  Sometimes people forget.

Holger Wende

I read somewhere, Nav lights should be on when the aircraft is powered.

Regards Holger

cdpohl

The rules of when to display navigation lights can be found in International Standards, Rules of the Air, Annex 2 of ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organization).

Basically, nav lights need to be displayed from sunset to sunrise or such other period as prescribed by the relevant authority when in flight and when moving on the movement area of an aerodrome.

Dirk Schepmann

If I recall correctly, a real pilot from a German airline told me that the usage at daytime on the ground is at captain's discretion and the airline recommends to keep them off to extend the lifetime of the (rather expensive) light bulbs.

I'm wondering how many airplanes have been fitted with LEDs in the meantime, though.

Best regards,
Dirk

tim96

Quote from: Dirk Schepmann on Tue, 29 Oct 2019 23:55
If I recall correctly, a real pilot from a German airline told me that the usage at daytime on the ground is at captain's discretion and the airline recommends to keep them off to extend the lifetime of the (rather expensive) light bulbs.



Hi Dirk,

that would explain my observation :)

Thank you all for answering

Best wishes
Volker

John H Watson

Expensive? Depends where you buy them

Nav light bulbs:

https://pilotshq.com/quartzline-aircraft-lamp-28v100w-1970x-41938-p-8961.html

You'd be surprised how much more visible a grey wing  becomes with a nav light on.

mattch49

Ref UPS, we do not use Logo lights on any of our fleet, they have all been deactivated.  Not sure why?
Joseph Chamberlain
Aircraft Dispatcher - UPS

John H Watson

Sounds strange. ATC usually like to see illuminated tails on the field for easier identification. We had a 10 day MEL for logo lights.

mattch49

I haven't found a good answer, either.  Our MEL doesn't even list the Logo Light, but MEL 33-45-1 is in there with the heading NOT APPLICABLE.
Joseph Chamberlain
Aircraft Dispatcher - UPS

United744

Quote from: mattch49 on Sat, 16 Nov 2019 08:51
Ref UPS, we do not use Logo lights on any of our fleet, they have all been deactivated.  Not sure why?

Cost! No, really. They don't want to pay for the bulbs, so they deactivate them.

Dispatcher

Hello, about position/nav and logo lights, my FAA MEL manual, coming from my training (could be not updated) reports the following for the B 747-400:

-43-1 Position Lights (Wing Tips and Tail)

Installed 6 :
Required to be dispatched:
-3 For night operations, all except the following minimum may be inoperative: a) One stationary red wing tip bulb, b) One stationary green wing tip bulb, and c) One stationary white tail bulb.
-0 (zero) for day operations - May be inoperative for day operations.

-45-1 LOGO Light System:
Installed 1
Required to be dispatched; 0
M.C.
FAA Aircraft Dispatcher

mattch49

Quote from: United744 on Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:41
Cost! No, really. They don't want to pay for the bulbs, so they deactivate them.

That's some serious cost cutting, not surprising!
Joseph Chamberlain
Aircraft Dispatcher - UPS

Roddez

Quote from: mattch49 on Thu, 28 Nov 2019 09:55
Quote from: United744 on Tue, 26 Nov 2019 05:41
Cost! No, really. They don't want to pay for the bulbs, so they deactivate them.

That's some serious cost cutting, not surprising!

It's not just the cost of the bulb, nor is it just the additional cost of labour to replace it.  When you start to look at the accumulated costs of process, within an organisation the size of UPS, it's staggering...

Consider the process from the point that someone realises that the logo light isn't working.  You need to start by writing up a defect, then things snowball from there.  To close the loop on things in aviation costs a fortune.

Cheers,

Rod.
Rodney Redwin
YSSY
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

Hardy Heinlin

What if I were a horse race event manager sitting at the airport cafe by night, thinking about the logistics for the upcoming event and about the transport of 800 horses around the globe, now looking out the window of the cafe, discovering the illuminated UPS logo out there on the apron, and suddenly get the great idea: "Next time we take UPS!" -- Perhaps I wouldn't have got this inspiration if the UPS logo had been invisible ...

Ah, wait ... does UPS take horses anyway? Well, then assume I'm Santa Claus thinking about the transport of 800  sacks of rice.


!-!ardy

John H Watson

QuotePerhaps I wouldn't have got this inspiration if the UPS logo had been invisible ...

Or it may have had an adverse affect when the manager noticed the unwashed, poorly maintained tailfin with  hydraulic fluid running down the sides (nicely illuminated by the logo lights) and decided not to risk his valuable racehorses.

Korean airlines used to have this crazy requirement to check logo lights on transits even if it was daytime. We would have to pressurise the hydraulics and tilt the stabliser just to see the lights (from the upper deck doors). Instead of a simple walkaround, it was a two man job (one person on the ground to give clearance for hydraulics).

Now, the OH&S rules are so strict, they won't even let us open the upper deck doors without harnesses on.