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Projector/outside view and sense of scale

Started by ahaka, Thu, 28 Mar 2019 11:48

ahaka

Having played around with both monitor and projector setups for an external scenery view, it's become obvious that even a fairly large (120-140 inch) projector image, as immersive and great as it is, does not give the sense of real-world scale. It is, in essence, still like flying/taxiing through a miniature/scaled down world. This has led me to wonder if even the level-d simulators offer an absolute true-to-life scale and depth perception or are you still able to spot the difference? If the scale is spot on in these simulators, how is it achieved?

Antti

Hardy Heinlin

When you use an image that is projected on a wall 1 meter in front of you, the tree in the middle of that picture is literally 1 meter in front of you, even though it should be, say, 3 miles away. When you move your head sideways 1 meter to the left, that tree will move to the right, so you need to turn your head 45° to the right to keep facing that tree.

In the big sims, the objects are optically farther away than just the distance from the seat to the projector wall. The beam from the light source travels farther via mirrors. When you move your head sideways, the objects will move only a little. The impression is such that you think distant objects are miles away because the view angles change just a little. It feels like looking at a mirror whose original image is located outside the sim cell.


|-|ardy

ahaka

#2
Ah right, so the projector beam does not come directly from the lens but from a set of (two angled?) mirrors. I wonder if anyone here has used this for their sim...

What about nearby objects? Say you are parked next to a terminal building with a jetway attached to your plane and vehicles moving around you. Or you are (for some unknown reason) right next to that tree. Will these look life-sized in the big sim?

Antti

Hardy Heinlin

It's a compromise. It's not a true 3D-world after all. I would say it feels like an image that is 5 or 10 meters away. And that alone makes a big difference already. Also the motion of the image and its 180° panorama angle enhances  the (virtual) 3D impression.


Roddez

And Q4 will happily sell you a collimated display for about US$750,000...  :o
Rodney Redwin
YSSY
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

farrokh747

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wqq4-XC5f8U

time lapse...  you get a sense of large the back projection screen and the mirrors are...

CAE will happily sell you a FFS for 13 mill usd or thereabouts.....    :P

Ive often found that a good Malt will solve the issue of my brain telling me the runway is only 5 feet away.....

fc

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

That's not suspension of disbelief.
That's suspension of judgement.


:-P

GodAtum

Interesting ... so for a home setup, are 3 projectors still better than 3 TVs?

farrokh747

https://www.natvis.com.au

https://www.natvis.com.au/tv-s-vs-projection

Nat Crea does a lot of visual installations for commercial/advanced builders -

I dont believe these are collimated though... 

There must be some wizardry involved in maintaining the curvature of the mylar mirror via vacuum pumps...

fc

ahaka

Quote from: GodAtum on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:59
Interesting ... so for a home setup, are 3 projectors still better than 3 TVs?

If you have adequate space in your house for this kind of setup, then generally speaking, yes, as they would project an image larger than most TVs would, meaning the out of the window view appears larger and closer to real-life scale. However, it is debatable if it's really worth it to upgrade if you already have 3 large TV screens. But say you have one projector already anyway, then I'd rather get another one to extend the view (even two projectors can create a very nice view) than 3 TVs.

In the end, for a home setup, even one big TV screen/projector image for outside view adds to the immersion quite a bit.
Antti

ahaka

Interesting links farrokh!

Though after seeing the complexity/price tag I've come to a conclusion that I'll pass with the collimated display system :-) I fly from the left seat all the time anyway and it still looks great! Completely sober!
Antti

Roddez

Quote from: GodAtum on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:59
Interesting ... so for a home setup, are 3 projectors still better than 3 TVs?

No.

I have seen some awesome TV setups and some equally awesome projector setups.  I have also seen some terrible setups using both TVs and projectors.

Rod.
Rodney Redwin
YSSY
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

Roddez

Quote from: farrokh747 on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:33
I dont believe these are collimated though... 

Correct Freddy, Nat's standard setup uses material screens suspended on a custom metal frame with 3 HD projectors.

Quote from: farrokh747 on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:33
There must be some wizardry involved in maintaining the curvature of the mylar mirror via vacuum pumps...

Yep - that's why the real systems cost so much.  :D
Rodney Redwin
YSSY
www.simulatorsolutions.com.au

GodAtum

Quote from: Roddez on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 23:09
Quote from: GodAtum on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:59
Interesting ... so for a home setup, are 3 projectors still better than 3 TVs?

No.

I have seen some awesome TV setups and some equally awesome projector setups.  I have also seen some terrible setups using both TVs and projectors.

Rod.

I'm planning my visuals setup atm, could you give some examples of why they where bad so I can avoid the same mistakes?

ahaka

Quote from: Roddez on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 23:09
Quote from: GodAtum on Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:59
Interesting ... so for a home setup, are 3 projectors still better than 3 TVs?

No.

I have seen some awesome TV setups and some equally awesome projector setups.  I have also seen some terrible setups using both TVs and projectors.

Rod.

I would still argue that (generally speaking) a projector setup is more immersive. Of course there are huge TV screens as well, but in most cases you can get bigger image with a projector. Also, TVs dont bend (yet), so with projectors you can go for a curved screen.

But of course in home environment there are often limits to what one can do, and in some cases it probably makes more sense to get a TV instead.
Antti

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

Curious -- TVs do bend.



Is this a type of bend that is useful for simming? Or should they also bend in the vertical axis? Sim use is from a more limited point of view than family room use.


Hoppie

ahaka

Yes that's right, there are curved TVs out there, but I meant bend as in bend to the shape you want (like wrap around a flight deck) :-)

From what I know at least some of the wrap around screens bend both horizontally and vertically.
Antti

Britjet

One negative aspect of the tv setup is that because of the vertical limitation of the screen the TVs have to be very close to, if not replacing, the flight deck windows. This is unsatisfactory if you are making a two-crew sim.
With projection the picture is much further away so you get more of a 3D effect.
My sim visuals are aligned with the left hand seat - so the view you get looks natural, but from the right hand seat you feel as though you are flying sideways. The only thing that will overcome this is a collimated display.
When the 4K projectors become affordable I think that will definitely be the way to go. Even without 4K the view is good enough,  I think..
Peter.

GodAtum

Quote from: Britjet on Sun, 31 Mar 2019 12:07
When the 4K projectors become affordable I think that will definitely be the way to go. Even without 4K the view is good enough,  I think..
Peter.

Funny you should say that ... I'm hoping to get 3 Viewsonic X10-4K projectors, short throw and cheap enough.