Landing underneath the runway

[Martin Baker]

Hi. Still having a few teething issues with various add-ons to connect to P3D and real weather. I've done a few short flights and twice, now, the plane has sunk under the runway.

1. Arriving at KATL from KJFK the radio altimeter was reading as though runway was at sea level, but everything else (PSX and P3D, including glideslope indications) was normal. As I sunk through the runway I did a go-around and after a few minutes came back for a normal landing. I forgot to save a situ.

2. Just now, arriving at EGLL, the plane sank through the runway on landing (again RA thought airport was at sea level so the call outs weren't in sync with visuals or the glideslope) - this time I continued the landing and the window just poked out of the runway at lighting level. I did remember to save a situ which is here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/y104c773b7mdop3/--Event%20record%202019-FEB-21%2021-10-43.situ?dl=0

Can anyone explain what I'm getting wrong here?

Many thanks,

Martin

[Hardy Heinlin]

Hi Martin,

I don't know what scenery generator add-on you're using, but when such an add-on is connected, the elevation in PSX is then controlled by that add-on (tops of buildings, trees etc.). In a solo PSX instance you can't sink below the ground.

I guess this is something for the "Accessories" subforum.


Regards,

|-|ardy

[Martin Baker]

Thanks Hardy. Do you mind moving the thread over, and perhaps some of the accessories spedialists will be able to help?

By the way this last flight was with 10.62 and the vnav descent was spot on - thanks and congratulations again on this amazing programme and its continued development. M

[Chris Kilroy]

I've done literally thousands of landings with PSX.NET Externalsim and have never seen anything like that, so I'm guessing you must be running WidePSX. In my experience, Externalsim is much (MUCH!) smoother, more stable, and less buggy. It's one of those things that seems to just work perfectly 100% of the time, requiring no further thought. Best of all, not only is it free, but the guys who've developed it are absolutely top class.

[Martin Baker]

I've done literally thousands of landings with PSX.NET Externalsim and have never seen anything like that, so I'm guessing you must be running WidePSX. In my experience, Externalsim is much (MUCH!) smoother, more stable, and less buggy. It's one of those things that seems to just work perfectly 100% of the time, requiring no further thought. Best of all, not only is it free, but the guys who've developed it are absolutely top class.

Interesting! Yes I was using WidePSX just for scenery injection but with bits of PSX.net connected too - perhaps some conflict?

The only problem with Externalsim is that sometimes I can't get it to connect, but that seems to be random - sometimes it connects with no problem.

For instance at the start of this flight I DID use externalsim for the connection. When I started externalsim the P3D (BOAC) plane moved to the correct spot, but then nothing moved on pushback, so I switched to WidePSX. At other times this is all fine. I run them on the same machine. Any tips?

Thanks,

Martin

[JohnH]

Martin,

I was looking all over for a P3D 747 in the retro BOAC livery. May I ask where you found one?

John

P.S. I also use externalsim and have never seen this sinking problem.

[Gary Oliver]

JohnH,

I have a new PSX747 Model for External sim that is almost ready for release, we of course have the BOAC livery too :-)

Send me an email g oliver 1984 [at] gmail.com and I will send it over to you for testing.

Cheers
G

[Martin Baker]

Martin,

I was looking all over for a P3D 747 in the retro BOAC livery. May I ask where you found one?

John

P.S. I also use externalsim and have never seen this sinking problem.

Hi John - the sad answer is that I can't remember as I've downloaded so many extras in the last couple of weeks in haste to try and pull it all together.

But, I THINK it was from a link on this site, probably in a PSX.net or externalsim thread. I thought I was downloading a normal BA livery and got a surprise when it turned out to be BOAC. Maybe it was something from Gary's team?

[kopek666]

 Hello

I use WidePSX and I don't have this issue.
Don't use two products which does the same thing...

[Gary Oliver]

Martin,

Just to confirm none of the other parts of psx.net other than the external sim touch anything to do with airfield elevation.

However I would suspect there was a conflict when you started external sim and stopped it switching over.

If you want some help with ensuring it's setup correctly so it does move when pushing back give me a shout, I'm free most wednesdays for a teamviewer session.

Documentation isn't our strong point as you can tell

Cheers
G

[Martin Baker]

If you want some help with ensuring it's setup correctly so it does move when pushing back give me a shout, I'm free most wednesdays for a teamviewer session.

That's very kind, Gary. I've installed teamviewer and if you have any time to have a look today, please let me know.

Martin

[Steve Hose]

Hi Martin B,

Just to put another troubleshooting alternative on the table, this could be an airport elevation issue within P3D. This can happen if you are using add-on airports or scenery, and especially with third party terrain meshes.

If you happen to be using orbx FTX products, they have an airport elevation correction tool built into their FTX Vector product that resolves any mis-matched elevations. There may be other third party tools that can do this if you don't have orbx.

Hope you find the root cause of the issue & fix it soon.

Regards, Steve.

[Dirk Schepmann]

I can confirm what Steve said regarding the airport elevation issues.

Every now and then I also had similar elevation issues and in most cases they disappeared when I deactivated 3rd party mesh add-ons in the P3D scenery library.

I still don't know why these problems are introduced, though. The scenery generator reads the ground elevation from P3D and injects it in PSX.  So theoretically the appearance of the airport should be correct in PSX, no matter which add-on is used in P3D and which altitude is transmitted from P3D to PSX. At least that's what I always thought to be the case.

I can only speculate that the reason for the phenomenon described by Martin has something to do with the priority and order of the mesh entries in P3D. Especially if people use Global Mesh and Orbx Vector, things get really complicated.

The terrain in P3D is set to a default elevation as provided by LM, then the global mesh makes a lot of adjustments. Orbx Vector finally lifts an airport with a wrong default airport elevation in P3D to the correct one. But if an airport scenery is designed for the standard scenery, the change introduced by Orbx Vector has to be taken back so that the airport will show up correctly.
The combination of default mesh, an improved global mesh, Orbx vector and a fine airport mesh by the airport designer has always been a complicated recipe and it takes a while to realize what's going on behind the scenes. These things can drive P3D pilots crazy... and maybe it can also confuse the scenery generator.

As I said, it might be wise to deactivate all these 3rd party add-ons when using the PSX/P3D combo.

Best regards,
Dirk

[G-CIVA]

There should be no reason to deactivate any scenery or mesh when using the p3D/FSX/PSX combination.

I have/am able to use VisualPSX, PSX.Net or WidePSX as the programme to synchronise the scenery generator to PSX with none of the issues reported here.

The root cause could well be the scenery mesh & Orbx FTX Vector Scenery entry order or hierarchy within the scenery library - mine differs subtley from what FTX Central always designates.

I also recommend using a scenery configuration manager ...

https://sourceforge.net/projects/fs-sceditor/files/latest/download

Of course those of you now using p3Dv4 might be placing scenery in a different folder or even a different drive external to p3Dv4 but this configuration manager might still be useful to organize the folder structure that remains within the native p3Dv4 installation - just as long as you do not edit/alter the default native files

Here is a screenshot of my scenery folder file architecture showing the default areas of the p3Dv3 scenery that should not be edited (i.e. sequential order of hierarchy with relevance to other default scenery entries) with my FS Global Ultimate MESH (entries 468-478) & ORBX FTX Vector (entries 477-482) added AFTER the default p3Dv3 scenery area 'Africa' & before the default p3Dv3 scenery area '1107 Base':



You will also note that the addon mesh I have installed has been layered above Orbx FTX Vector.  This means Vector will 'catch' any airport elevation conflicts & always correct them for ANY scenery entry that sits in a hierarchical scenery entry ABOVE its positions.

Unfortunately as I stated earlier if you allow FTX Central to install Vector to its chosen position it may not position the entries correctly as I am advising - hence why I use this scenery configuration manager.

The latest version is backwards compatible with FSX & forwards compatible with p3Dv4 as long as it is set up & used correctly. 

Remember DO NOT alter the sequential order of hierarchy of the default scenery entries with relevance to other default scenery entries, you can add your own addon scenery files above, below or indeed in between them if you so wish, but do not change their order of hierarchy with relevance to other default scenery entries - or you will put yourself in a world of hurt.

Always always make a separate back up of the scenery.cfg somewhere totally separate from its native installation subfolder before you go messing about in there - mine is on a totally separate SSD!

Hope this helps

[Martin Baker]

Steve, Dirk and Steve, thanks so much for this advice - it is very possible that there is an issue with scenery config as I'm completely new to P3D(v4). Here's a bit more info about my setup in case you see something specific.

I have the basic P3Dv4 installed (same computer as PSX server) and have added sceneries for a handful of different cities but no extra mesh as you describe it.

Both times this sinking effect occurred (EGLL and KATL) I was flying into airports above sea-level (well, only just in the case of London!) having taken off from KJFK. (It was as if the ground remained at JFK altitude despite the scenery showing at the correct altitude visually.) I have add-on sceneries for all three cities: NY airports v2, ImagineSim Atlanta and SimWings LHR professional. In the scenery library they appear at the top of everything else and are greyed out so I can't move them, and seem to have been installed in a variety of different folders.

A couple of FlyTampa world files are down at the bottom just above the default scenery and terrain, but I can't move those either.

Would it help to invest in the Orbx Vector and Global Mesh add-ons you mention?

[Britjet]

Martin,

Don't worry about not being able to move the greyed-out sceneries. That is normal. Same with the Fly Tampa stuff where some of the files sit way down at the broom of the list. The greyed-out files are a result of the new scenery file system in V4. They are installed as XML files, in the folders that you mention, which are not in the P3D V4 application folder. That's normal.

ORBX vector is not essential at all. In my experience though,  it can cause problems with airport elevations. However it is configurable in the options to have as little or as much impact as you want, so it's ok to have it.
The airfield elevation corrections (AEC) in Vector are rather crude. They merely take an average of all the runway threshold elevations and place the whole airfield at that level. A better system, in my opinion, is the one supplied with the Pilot's mesh such as the new downloadable Global Ultimate. It blends local terrain nicely so that the airfield doesn't finish up looking like an aircraft carrier!

I would suggest that you back up your scenery.cfg file, and then delete the original and let P3D rebuild it.
It is also a good idea to delete the dat folders at the same time from within the Program Data/P3Dv4 folder. They are called SceneryIndexes64. When you restart P3D they will rebuild also.

Do NOT EVER delete your terrain.cfg file. If you do so you will have to reinstall all your add-ons. ORBX installations can be reset easily with their own terrain.cfg file but this does not contain any other add-ons, so beware.

Lastly - I would suggest that you completely uninstall and re-install any scenery that has an issue.

HTH

Peter.

[G-CIVA]

Peter,

The FTX Vector issues you mention might just be because of the scenery entry hierarchy positioning that I have discussed ... The FTX Central programme has some options to place FTX vector within your scenery folder but its better to manually position it.  It's worth just trying the method I describe (whether you use an external scenery editor or not) to see any previous issues with FTX Vector disappear  - mine certainly did - with p3D versions 3 & 4.

[Martin Baker]

Thanks for this, Peter - really helpful. I'll do as you suggest this evening then try the JFK-ATL leg again and see if the problem recurs. Fingers crossed...

[Britjet]

Thanks for the tip, Steve.
Peter.

[Martin Baker]

First chance I've had to fly since the original post. Repeated JFK-ATL and at approx 3,500ft on the approach, "radio altimeter" was announced.    So all is well with the world again, and hopefully will continue that way. A big thank you to everyone for all the helpful ideas over the last week, much appreciated.

Martin