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Author Topic: New Rudder Pedals  (Read 4170 times)

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #20 on: Thu, 22 Aug 2019 20:50 »
Thanks, Simon. By the look of the design, these wouldn't even be close to reaching the 4.2" (8.4" total) rudder travel of the real plane that I'm looking for. Even FDS falls woefully short at 2.7" (5.375" total). It's hard to find anything with that kind of travel, even on the high-end products.

Jon

Jack love 744ERF

  • Join date: Aug 2015
  • Location: ZGGG
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #21 on: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 05:18 »
Hello Jon
I just sent you email. Please check.
I am sorry for my disappearance. And I just found your post here.

Regards
Jack

emerydc8

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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #22 on: Fri, 23 Aug 2019 08:16 »
Got it. Thanks, Jack!

Jon

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
  • Posts: 222
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #23 on: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 09:06 »
It seems that the Flightlink website has shut down.

I guess there is not much hope now for an airliner style rudder pedals with realistic travel and feel...
Antti

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #24 on: Thu, 9 Jan 2020 10:16 »
The PFC Cirrus rudders I have do the job, but they are nowhere near the travel of the real airplane. That's the #1 problem on my sim I wish I could resolve. Probably the reason no one has bothered to mass produce a set like the real plane is that only PSX simulates what a real engine failure on the 744 is like. Those using FSX or a program that piggybacks onto FSX are only kidding themselves about the realism of an E/O -- It wouldn't matter what rudders they have because their software can't simulate a real engine out anyway.
Jon

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #25 on: Sat, 11 Jan 2020 15:00 »
https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls-e-rudder-with-toe-brakes/

I found this one. Judging from the diagrams and their specification, these pedals would offer nearly 6" of travel to each direction ( around 12" total).

They look nothing like Boeing pedals though. :)
Antti

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #26 on: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 00:22 »
Thanks for posting. Looks interesting. I wonder if they've considered modifying their rudders for double the travel.

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
  • Posts: 222
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #27 on: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 09:24 »
Does it really have to be double, I thought the real one has 8.4? We could ask them about a modified version for 744.

In any case these have the most travel I have managed to find so far. Perhaps not worth the upgrade for that price though.
Antti

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #28 on: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 13:37 »
From what I can tell from the dimensions, there is only about 6" between the pedals and the front edge of the unit, so it might interface well with my PFC Cirrus yoke. I'll have to investigate this further. Maybe it will be my first purchase for the sim in 2020.  Thanks again for posting. I sent an email off to Brunner to see if they will work with PSX and whether the 5.9" throw is 11.8" stop-to-stop. It looks as if it is. That would be good news and well worth the price if the travel is what it looks to be and it works with PSX.
Jon
« Last edit: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 13:56 by emerydc8 »

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #29 on: Sun, 12 Jan 2020 22:38 »
Jon,

I just want to make sure I understand and express everything correctly here:

You said the real 744 pedals have 8.4" of travel. Do you mean from full left rudder to full right rudder you get total of 8.4" of rudder pedal movement? Or 8.4" from center to either side?

I assumed it was from one extreme to the other at first, but I'm not sure anymore.

The Brunner one I posted a link of seems to offer 15cm (approx. 5.9 inches) from center to either side. So in total 11.8 inches if you move the rudder from one extreme to another. So it is either even more travel than the real 744, or a tad short?

I apologize if I did not understand something correctly. English is not my native language so there's always room for confusion.

Antti

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #30 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 00:29 »
Hi Antti,

When I first looked at the Brunner ad, I thought it was just 6" from stop-to-stop (3" from neutral), but it looks like it is nearly 12 from stop-to-stop. The 8.4" on the real 744 would be stop-to-stop, so the Brunner would actually be even more travel. If these will work with PSX, I intend to order them. Just waiting to hear back from customer service. Thanks for finding these and posting here. This would be a big step in getting my sim closer to the feel of the real airplane, especially with V1 cuts.
Jon

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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  • Hoppie designs avionics equipment for airliners.
    • http://www.hoppie.nl/
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #31 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 00:33 »
Just curious... I once read that the recommended technique as soon as you detect asymmetrical thrust, is to stamp on the good engine all the way and then reduce once the airplane responds?

Just trying to figure out why the travel of the pedals is so important. If you aim for, say, 2/3 travel into the good engine, I get that. If you stamp and then reduce, it should be less relevant?

Hoppie

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #32 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 01:16 »
It's not as simple as just stomping and reducing. You have to meter in whatever pressure and at whatever rate to keep it on the centerline based on thrust, weight and wind conditions, etc. It may be full, initially, but there is no mechanical one size fits all solution. The larger throw makes it more realistic because even at near max throw, reducing the pressure just a tad will cause significant pitch and roll changes that are not as evident when the throw is only a few inches.

Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers

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  • Hoppie designs avionics equipment for airliners.
    • http://www.hoppie.nl/
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #33 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 09:28 »
In other words, the modulation of the rudder pedals requires significant nuance, just as yoke manipulation in pitch and bank, and you would not want a pitch travel of 2 inches, either.

Never having flown a heavy jet aircraft or (real) sim with proper instruction, I just completely miss any experience here.

I do remember the springy near-switch experience of a 172 during taxi... hello Simon   :-P


Hoppie

emerydc8

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  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #34 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 10:05 »
Quote
In other words, the modulation of the rudder pedals requires significant nuance, just as yoke manipulation in pitch and bank, and you would not want a pitch travel of 2 inches, either.

Exactly. With more rudder throw, it takes a lot more input to effect the same result. Additionally, when you're talking about having to push in 4 or 5 inches for an E/O, it gets your hamstrings involved and even your glutes, so it even affects how you're sitting in the seat at that moment. I'm hoping that rudder pedals with the same or more throw, like the Brunner, will make V1 cuts that much more difficult.

garys

  • Join date: Nov 2012
  • Posts: 77
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #35 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:04 »
Best bet would be to talk to Art at Northern Flightsim.  if you discuss your requirements I'm sure  he would be able to design and build a suitable set of rudder pedal for you. 
https://northernflightsim.com/

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #36 on: Mon, 13 Jan 2020 19:51 »
Ok, Jon, got it now!

I’m only glad if I was able to find something useful to share on this forum. Most of the time it’s just me getting information from people like you.

Speaking of which, if it’s not too much trouble please share here how your business went with Brunner. If the product is good I might consider it one day as well.
Antti

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1996
Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #37 on: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 11:54 »
Thanks Gary. I should look into Northernflightsim too.

Here's the reply I received from Brunner. I'm afraid it raises more questions than answers. So, if I can't utilize the force feedback, will it work at all? Springs? I'm not even sure I can come up with an intelligent reply here.

Quote
thanks for your inquiry and interest in our products.
unfortunately we did not test our products with Aerowinx PSK yet.
as far as i understand Aerowinx PSK it is an add-on for B744 flight deck simulation which is running on x-plane or P3D?
all our units are integrated with x-plane, P3D and MS FSX (FS2020 as well as soon as released). therefore if you use either x-plane or P3d for flightmodel and scenery there should not be an issue.
CLS2SIM SW https://www.brunner-innovation.swiss/product/cls2sim-software/ ensured the interface to the sim SW as well all the parametrization and setup functions.
but we haven't done any tests with this SW at all therefore i can notclearly confirm compatibility...

the USB connection will work for sure but then you will miss the force feedback.

regarding travel range, the rudder offers 5.9" in total means +/- 3.95".

hope this helps.

kind regards

ahaka

  • Join date: May 2010
  • Location: EFHK
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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #38 on: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 13:57 »
That's confusing... now they say that the total travel is 5.9"? This seems contradictory to their drawings... Or it would mean the pedals actually move only around half way along the "openings".

Regarding the force feedback, if it can be configured "passive" then it would just act like a dampening/centering force (much like the springs in standard pedal offerings) and would not necessarily need a specific connection to the sim. But none of this matters if the throw is that short.

Good thing you asked about it.

Antti

Hardy Heinlin

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Re: New Rudder Pedals
« Reply #39 on: Tue, 14 Jan 2020 15:26 »
3.95 might be a typo and perhaps should read 2.95 which is the half of 5.9.

It seems the Brunner pedal wants to be fed with airspeed data for dynamic force feedback? Isn't that irrelevant for the 747? As we know, the 747 incorporates automatic rudder ratio changers. When the airspeed is increasing on an engine-out flight you can keep your rudder pedal deflection constant; the ratio changers will automatically decrease the rudder surface angle at the tail. In other words, to keep the aerodynamics in balance, the system will not force you to release your foot; instead, it just decreases the rudder surface angle. This avoids structural damages. Increasing force feedback is not required. It's the same with aileron control. No variable force feedback. Just the lockout of the outboard ailerons at higher speeds to prevent damage and to provide finer control. The elevator is the only control with a variable, computer controlled "force feedback".


Regards,

|-|ardy