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RTE page VIA-TO display logic for transitions

Started by Hardy Heinlin, Thu, 16 Aug 2018 21:02

Hardy Heinlin

Good evening,

I seem to need to modify the VIA-TO display logic for transitions.

Up to PSX version 10.42 a procedure and its associated procedure transition are displayed in two separate lines; the one line referring to the procedure without its transition, the other line referring to the transition.

Here's an example of a SID displayed in PSX 10.42.

DEEEP2 is the SID without transition
DEEEP2.EONNS is the SID transition





The real FMC, however, probably compacts all SID legs, including the non-transition legs, into one line like this:



Has anyone on the real deck noticed this?


And there's a second question. What's displayed when the first waypoint has been sequenced? Shouldn't 1R on the RTE page always show the active waypoint? PSX 10.42 shows the active waypoint which is BSTER in this scenario after takeoff:




If the real FMC too shows the active waypoint at 1R in flight, what will it display under VIA? The SID name or the SID name with transition name?

Here's the SID name without the transition name, going to BSTER:




And here's the SID name with the transition name, going to BSTER:



(The latter looks strange to me because the active leg is not a transition leg. On the other hand, the real FMC always seems to compact all SID legs into "SIDname.TransitionName".


Regards,

|-|ardy



Hardy Heinlin

Well, I just learned another undocumented feature of the real FMC.

1.
When on a SID, RTE page 1R does not indicate the active waypoint; it always indicates the SID's final target waypoint. Should this principle also be applied to airways? Should 1R only indicate the active waypoint when the current VIA is a DIRECT (no procedure, no airway)?

2.
When on a SID and before the SID transition, RTE page 1L indicates "SidName.TransitionName", e.g. DEEEP2.EONNS.

3.
When on a SID transition, RTE page 1L indicates "TransitionName" in big font followed by the word TRANS in small font, e.g. EONNSTRANS.


|-|ardy

United744

Interesting! Is the FMS getting a program update? :D

emerydc8

Hi Hardy,

My brain is a bit fried from flying all night, but I glanced at your post before I left the hotel and I had a chance to do some videos out of MSP last night after they gave us a last-minute re-route to DTW for weather. We were given the ZMBRO7 SID with the ODI transition.

https://youtu.be/BACj75cJ2to

After takeoff, we were given direct to ZMBRO, so we never made it to the first fix (JEDET). Here's the video as we were going direct to ZMBRO.

https://youtu.be/Bn7-YPgTEcw

I don't know if this answers any of your questions, but I hope it helps.
Cheers,
Jon

PS, Notice the OFFSET is available on the SID because we went direct to ZMBRO.


Hardy Heinlin

Hi Jon,

yes, this helps. Thank you!


Cheers,

|-|ardy

Hardy Heinlin

Quote from offset route discussion re JAKIE4 STAR to KCVG (Cincinnati):
http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4809.msg51691#msg51691

Quote from: emerydc8 on Sat, 18 Aug 2018 10:07


Hi Jon,

why is there a disco after FIDEK? Was that an ATC intervention? Do you remember what was originally indicated in the "TO" field after DOLLI.JAKIE4? Was it AGEBE? -- After AGEBE there are VECTORS. Would the "TO" field in this case indicate AGEBE or VECTORS?


|-|ardy

emerydc8

Hi Hardy,

Originally when I installed the arrival, the two waypoints after FIDEK were BAMBGE and AGEBE. Since we knew we were going to get runway 9 in KCVG I deleted those two waypoints because we get vectors for the approach prior to FIDEK, usually to intercept outside SEMSE, the Course Fix. So the discon is my doing and it was purposeful.

Jon

Hardy Heinlin

Thanks! So the original STAR went to AGEBE indeed. Do you remember if the RTE page in the DOLLI.JAKIE4 line actually indicated "AGEBE", or did it indicate "VECTORS" (because this STAR actually ends with vectors after AGEBE)? I guess on your LEGS page there was VECTORS after AGEBE.


|-|ardy

emerydc8

Hi Hardy,

Sorry, I can't remember. I'll see if I can experiment with this tomorrow night to KELP. We'll probably get the SAMMR3 arrival in there, which is a vector after the final waypoint (SAART). If I don't delete SAART, are you looking to see what the RTE page says?
Jon

Hardy Heinlin

No problem. You just answered it with your video here:
http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4852.msg51700#msg51700

BAE.POL22B ... goes to ... VECTORS


Thanks :-)

|-|ardy

Hardy Heinlin

#10
Has anyone on the real deck ever seen the words "APPR TRANS" in the VIA field on the RTE page?

For example, when the aircraft is on the last leg of a STAR with "VECTORS" in the TO field?


|-|ardy


P.S.: Or, if not "APPR TRANS", then perhaps the STAR identifier followed by the word "TRANS" in small font?

emerydc8

Are you asking only the 744 guys or the 767 guys too?

Hardy Heinlin

All those who work in brown Boeing cockpits.

emerydc8


emerydc8

#14
Both legs.

https://youtu.be/uNfI2oIv3J4

On the first leg to KELP, WHOLE was a selected approach transition to RW22.

https://youtu.be/5jWYQPCbpAs

On the second leg to KCVG, JADOP was a selected approach transition to RW09.

Hardy Heinlin

Fantastic. Thank you!

"APPR TRANS" also appears in PSX, but I wasn't sure anymore whether it was a "theoretical" feature.


Cheers,

|-|ardy

emerydc8

Looks like you got it right -- as usual.

Hardy Heinlin

But it's strange that you got a disco between your STAR and the APPR TRANS.

APPR TRANS is actually integrated in the STAR that you selected. APPR TRANS cannot be selected individually; they are automatically inserted when a compatible connection is found. It's a STAR-to-Rwy transition and isn't part of the approach or final-approach-transition. Final-approach-transitions have an identifier.

As far as I understand it, the segments are separated like this:

Enroute-to-STAR transition, e.g. "BAE" (selectable on ARRIVALS page when STAR selected)
STAR, e.g. "POLAR6" (selectable on ARRIVALS page)
STAR-to-Rwy trans., "APPR TRANS" (not shown on ARR, appears automatically when STAR and APP are selected)

Enroute-to-approach transition, e.g. "ABC" (selectable on ARRIVALS page when APP selected)
Approach, e.g. "ILS25" (selectable on ARRIVALS page)

So there are four possible selections, but five different segments. When five are set:

via
BAE.POLAR6
POLAR6
APPR TRANS
ABC
ILS25

They are now compacted on the RTE page like this:

via
BAE.POLAR6 (includes BAE transition, POLAR6 main route, and APPR TRANS)
ABC.ILS25 (includes ABC-transition-to-ILS and ILS-approach)

Individual segments re-appear when there is a disco or direct in between, or when they are on the active leg.

emerydc8

#18
QuoteAPPR TRANS is actually integrated in the STAR that you selected. APPR TRANS cannot be selected individually; they are automatically inserted when a compatible connection is found.

Once you select the arrival (STAR) transition and approach on the DEP/ARR page you will see a list of approach transitions to select from. Honestly, most of us never select an approach transition because we hardly ever get it and we usually get vectors before the STAR even ends, so we'll just extend the CF from 6R, unless we're going into KCVG where we know we will get the JADOP transition because they sequence all the DHL 767 arrivals onto runway 09 starting that far out (about 15 miles out). I just selected an approach transition for the videos. Normally, by the time they vector you, that transition is usually irrelevant because it is behind you.

Look at 00:25 in this video. As soon as I selected runway 22R and the BAE transition, a list of approach transitions showed up on the right side. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QOxQKN9LWq4&feature=youtu.be
Notice I didn't select an approach transition in the video. A discon is placed between the arrival and a runway transition. You would not want to close up that discon because I think it would be better to have the aircraft continue straight ahead rather than turn towards a transition that you were never cleared for.

The discon in my second video above going into CVG was a result of my deleting BAMGE and AGEBE since I knew we were going to get vectors to JADOP before we even got to FIDEK. Most of the time they will only clear you to descend via the STAR -- not the STAR and approach transition. The transition would have to be shown on the STAR itself. Going into KELP and KCVG, the approach transition is not a part of the published STAR.

Hardy Heinlin

QuoteLook at 00:25 in this video.

That's fine. There is no APPR TRANS displayed in that example.


QuoteThe discon in my second video above going into CVG was a result of my deleting BAMGE and AGEBE

OK. That explains it :-)