Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

News: The latest PSX update (version 10.54 from 7 November 2018) is available at: http://aerowinx.com/board/index.php?topic=4191.0

Author Topic: Ancient PFD  (Read 691 times)

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Ancient PFD
« on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 05:10 »
Just flew this one for the first time. It looks like the FMAs were an afterthought. No speed tape either.


Hardy Heinlin

  • Moderator
  • Join date: May 2009
  • Posts: 9690
    • Aerowinx
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #1 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 05:21 »
I remember this "F" and "S" (fast, slow) indicator was used on Microsoft's 747-400 "EFIS" panel in FS4 ...

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #2 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 05:49 »
That airspeed indicator to the left is so large that you almost couldn't miss being fast or slow. It took a minute to figure out why I couldn't select the approach speed and flaps on the CDU -- all you have are bugs on the airspeed indicator.

Mariano

  • Join date: May 2009
  • Posts: 458
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #3 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 07:54 »
That FMA is so confusing. Some (few) 767s had the round EADIs with the FMA on top, clearly, a welcome transition to the later speed tape setup.

The “FedEx” cockpit upgrade is quite the improvement.

Regards,

Mariano

andrej

  • Join date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
  • Posts: 220
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #4 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:34 »
It is nice to see that this ancient PFDs are still around. I remember that the original Wilco767 PIC product had it as well (maybe it was slightly newer version, with GS readings as well). FMAs are all over the place, must be a pain to follow them in orderly fashion (like 747-400). Don't you miss the 747-400? ;)

Nonetheless, correct me if I am wrong, but is in this technically called Electronic Attitude Direction Indicator? Finally, was is this 767 original freighter or conversion from a passenger jet?

Thanks!
Andrej

frumpy

  • Join date: Jun 2009
  • Location: Potsdam, Germany
  • Posts: 307
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #5 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:37 »
I wrote my masters thesis on the design of artificial horizons, actually roll indicators.
The skypointer in commercial horizons itself is misleading, the GA setup is better (but not yet perfect).
One thing I notice here is that the skypointer is even outside the blue, which
may add up to confusion.

Once the speed is set, the fast/slow indicator is pretty intuitive I think.

However, the FMA looks like a late-night work of an engineer, I
wonder if they did any human factors research before implementing?

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #6 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 20:47 »
This was recently converted to a freighter in MMMX over the summer by Israeli Aircraft Industries. It was flown at Transaero and before that I think it was at Gulf Air. S/N 26236. I'm hoping they eventually replace the "EADI" with something that has a speed tape like the rest of our fleet. As they say, we had a standardized fleet until we got our second airplane. I do miss the 744 but not the insane schedules that go with it.
Jon

andrej

  • Join date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
  • Posts: 220
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #7 on: Sun, 14 Jan 2018 23:30 »
Thanks fir yoyr reply!

In my humble opinion, it should be in your management's best interest to assimilate fleet as one. I am no expert nor a pilot, but I would presume that same or similarly equiped (standarnized) fleet reduces work load and stress for the flight crew. I hope that safety comes first and not $$$.

This EADI seems to be definitely first gen. Others (even without a speedtape) are more orderly.

When you say crazy hours, how crazy were they? And how did you accommodate with it (can you really?). Being non-pilot, I confess that, in a way, I romanise flying the Queen sometimes.

Cheers,
Andrej

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #8 on: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 06:08 »
Quote
When you say crazy hours, how crazy were they?

The company just sued the union to vacate an arbitration award that prevented the company from scheduling pilots for up to 30 hours of duty using one captain and three first officers on unlimited legs.

When I hired on years ago, my IOE started with a trip from Houston to San Juan, Puerto Rico, to Cape Verde (Africa) to Luanda, Angola. After a six hour delay in Houston, we departed around midnight local time (0450Z) and flew to Puerto Rico, where we were again delayed because the company could not get the landing permit for Angola. We departed Puerto Rico at 1735Z (after 8 hours on the ground) and arrived at Cape Verde at 2338Z, departing Cape Verde at 0125Z and arriving in Luanda, Angola at 0754Z.

All-in-all, we flew over 17 hours and were on duty for almost 36 hours. I was not able to sleep the entire time. I can't sleep on the airplane. 14 CFR Part 121.523(c) states that "[n]o certificate holder conducting supplemental operations may schedule any flight crewmember to be on continuous duty for more than 30 hours." Predictably, the company's position was that we were "scheduled" for less than 30, but we could exceed that once we started the trip.

Adding insult to injury, instead of being allowed 16 hours of rest in Angola for exceeding 24 continuous duty hours (121.523(c)), we ferried the airplane to Johannesburg after only 10 hours at the hotel. Because it was a Part 91 flight, this too was legal.

I'm happy with my 767 domestic schedule.

Britjet

  • Join date: Aug 2014
  • Location: Camberley, UK
  • Posts: 1256
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #9 on: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 10:43 »
You have my complete sympathy, Jon...
I was sheltered from much of my career from such extremes but you and I both know that pilots are always flying tired (can’t say fatigued). My favourite tale would be the 707 Captain that I was flying with after a fog-delayed multi-sector series Toronto/Prestick/Gatwick/East Midlands who had fallen asleep at the holding point at Gatwick when we were cleared for take-off. I remember the flight engineer thinking this was hilarious and egging me on to take-off with him asleep. I declined, but it’s a great example of how tiredness affects your judgement. When you are that tired you just don’t care anymore and feel invincible...
It has always been a bone of contention with me every time I see a lorry parked at the side of the road because the driver’s tachometer won’t let him go further, and yet as you say we are allowed to stretch the hours almost without sensible restriction for commercial gain.
Another strange thing to me is that the law will imprison a pilot and end his career if he has the equivalent of 1/2 pint of beer alcohol level in his bloodstream (harsh, but correct in my opinion) but they are prepared to let such lack of rest situations continue.
A bit off-topic from your PFD post, I’m afraid. Until recently I was flying the 767 sim at BA for customers and I rather liked the simplicity of it all, although the FMA indications are indeed a bit if a nightmare, and I could never work out what the F-S speed arrow did!
Peter.

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #10 on: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 16:46 »
I suppose the majors have moved away from that type of scheduling, but arguably, we are a "major" because we make over $1 billion a year in revenue and have 23 744s right now, with more on the way. I had to laugh when I heard our Fatigue Risk Management Program said that a person who hasn't slept for 24 hours is the equivalent of a person who is legally drunk. I bookmarked that section for future reference. Hopefully, I won't have to reference it on the 767 side.

It's hard enough just to fly all night when you get older. Although, I did get a laugh out of my 34-year-old hot-shot FO falling asleep on taxi in to ORD last month. It made me feel a bit better about my falling asleep on the taxi out with the brake set as we waited in the conga line during a low-visibility taxi. Maybe he was just meditating for that bone-chilling post-flight walk around. I felt so bad that I offered to do the left side of the airplane if he'd check the tail.

I'm glad to get away from that EADI for a while. Maybe they'll change it before I come back to work!

Cheers,
Jon

Will

  • Join date: May 2009
  • Location: Chicago
  • Posts: 1658
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #11 on: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 19:06 »
Well, my experience is in the commuter world, and they worked the crap out of us. Our trips were typically four days long, and one typical day might include 9 legs, like KSFO to Sacamento over and over and over again.

The worst though was the "stand up overnight" where our duty day would start at 18:00 and we'd fly until 1:00 am, take the van to the hotel and get in bed by 2:00 am, and then need to leave at 4:00 am for a 5:30 departure, then two more legs to finally duty off at 9:30. So there's hard work at night, an hour and a half of useful sleep overnight, and then hard work in the morning. Then 8 hours of "rest" which involved sleeping during the day, followed by the same schedule again for 2-3 more days. And then just when your body adapts, you go back to flying in the daytime again.

Did I mention that the British Aerospace J-32 doesn't have an autopilot? At least ours didn't. So those approaches in the San Francisco fog were all flown by hand...
Will /Chicago /USA

emerydc8

  • Join date: Jun 2015
  • Location: Tucson, AZ USA
  • Posts: 1598
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #12 on: Mon, 15 Jan 2018 19:38 »
I know the Part 135 guys get hit even harder because they have even less protection than the Part 121 guys. I've heard the horror stories about the stand-up overnights. Sadly, the public doesn't care, as long as the ticket price is low.

Really, the FAA isn't going to do a thing about it, despite Colgan and all the chest pounding they did with the new 117 regs, which really did nothing to address the Colgan problem. They are just hoping the problem resolves itself through collective bargaining agreements. Luckily, for the profession, a severe shortage of pilots puts us in a better position to negotiate better hours of service rules. Atlas is pushing for an 18-hour duty day for international trips. I hope they get it. An arbitrator just awarded us a 24-hour duty limit for a double-crew and a mandatory 22-hour rest period afterwards. The company is suing to have the award set aside. 

andrej

  • Join date: Apr 2012
  • Location: Bratislava, Slovakia
  • Posts: 220
    • Email
Re: Ancient PFD
« Reply #13 on: Sat, 20 Jan 2018 09:46 »
Quote
When you say crazy hours, how crazy were they?

Adding insult to injury, instead of being allowed 16 hours of rest in Angola for exceeding 24 continuous duty hours (121.523(c)), we ferried the airplane to Johannesburg after only 10 hours at the hotel. Because it was a Part 91 flight, this too was legal.

I'm happy with my 767 domestic schedule.

Thanks for your response. I had no idea how "creative" management can get. It is quite insulting to play around hours and be creative, in order to generate more 'profit'. This short-term focus is bad.

I am a firm believer that taking good care of employees and provide them with good working environment, should be priority for any firm (especially for those, where human capital is a core to their business).

And here I thought that doing 12 - 15 hour days in office were bad.

Cheers,
Andrej