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Apron => Pit => Topic started by: jcomm on Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:06

Title: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: jcomm on Tue, 1 Oct 2019 07:06
It's been further unveilled, and looks simply gorgeous !

The links bellow are just a couple from the many already available accross the Internet since yesterday.

It's going to be a true change of quality in many aspects, with the new features regarding World and Weather modelling.

Flight Dynamics model also completely written from scratch.

All of this, "unfortunately", when my focus of attention and pleasure in using this virtual worlds and aviations has turned almost 100% into a game - War Thunder :-)  I look back and see, in the mist of the past, the many hours spent at the desktop pretending I was a captain, or a 1st officer, driving my airliner, but at least FS 2020 with it's very plausible depiction of practically all places on Earth could at least serve as a tranning tool for emmergencies in the areas I fly for real :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fj8h6yibHHc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDTT3oxArLI
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Gary Oliver on Tue, 1 Oct 2019 21:03
I also understand that the devs of FS2020 are aware of the PSX sim builder community and very much interested in making it work as a visuals generator  ;D
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Tue, 1 Oct 2019 23:16
Let's hope that the managers of the devs of FS2020 are equally interested in this.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Will on Wed, 2 Oct 2019 01:22
A phenomenal world simulator that can be easily networked would be a real asset to many sim communities. It's a pity that the FS team has to concentrate on the "F" part - the airplane part. If they just concentrated on creating a world that users could move a camera through, and leave all the flight dynamics, aircraft sim portions, ATC, etc., to others, we'd have a real game changer.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: jcomm on Wed, 2 Oct 2019 12:25
Let's hope that the managers of the devs of FS2020 are equally interested in this.

This turn around I believe they really are / should be …

A phenomenal world simulator that can be easily networked would be a real asset to many sim communities. It's a pity that the FS team has to concentrate on the "F" part - the airplane part. If they just concentrated on creating a world that users could move a camera through, and leave all the flight dynamics, aircraft sim portions, ATC, etc., to others, we'd have a real game changer.

Well, it's possible already in ESP and derivates as well as in FSX, so I guess it'll make it's way into FS 2020 too.
But with the more advanced flight dynamics, and the SDK, maybe one day Hardy or someone with the same talent, finds a way to implement a sophisticated airliner directly in on of these platforms ( FLIGHT SIMULATOR or X-Plane ). Heck, their flight dynamics are very powerful already, and other systems can be programmed outside and plugged in effectively. Problem is, most of the guys who do that do not have the background / expert knowledge and talent Hardy has.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: ahaka on Thu, 3 Oct 2019 22:51
The weather/atmosphere model seems very impressive. For the first time the cloud formations and buildups look like they should.

I really, really hope we get VisualPSX (or something equally good) for this.



Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: RogerH on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 04:39
It looks beautiful.

As I understand it, however, there are no plans to support multi-screen setups. Could be an issue for cockpit builders?
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: ahaka on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 07:07
If they mean it when they say that they are making this first and foremost to flight simulator enthusiasts, they should add multi-monitor support. It is such a widely used feature, and not just for us who use PSX.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Gary Oliver on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 10:05
For me providing they give an option for injecting position we should be okay as we run multiple visuals PC's and can sync them as we do now with external sim.

However we shall see :-)
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Traffic on Fri, 4 Oct 2019 19:54
Having watched a few videos on YouTube by the lucky few ;-) invited to Seattle, it sounds like FS2020 will be released very much as a work in progress. So initially no multi-monitor support but in time there will be. Same with VR. Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Sat, 5 Oct 2019 12:32
... it sounds like FS2020 will be released very much as a work in progress...
The managers want the users to find the bugs and see where the market really heads, before committing resources... It may simply mean more game and less simulator, if money is all that matters.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Hammerstan on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 13:12
For me providing they give an option for injecting position we should be okay as we run multiple visuals PC's and can sync them as we do now with external sim.

Have a chat to Chewwy on this topic.  He reported here encouraging the developers to enable the use of MSFS as a scenery generator.  https://www.twitch.tv/videos/488371467?t=4802s (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/488371467?t=4802s)
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 17:11
Just picked up a rumour that all of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player. This would require a permanent good internet link. Not sure whether this rumour has any base in reality but for sure it matches perfectly with the anti-piracy war, backend heavy iron, Steam, etc.

It would also enable a MSFS Store with add-ons and scenery linked to your credit card and available, for rent or for sale, at the selection of a checkbox.

Enter new airspace?

[popup]
Would you want to enable photorealistic scenery for this airport for $0.99?

Hoppie
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Hessel Oosten on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 19:27
For emergency landings....  quadrate the price of the airport …. ;)

H.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: ahaka on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 19:46
Just picked up a rumour that all of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player. This would require a permanent good internet link. Not sure whether this rumour has any base in reality but for sure it matches perfectly with the anti-piracy war, backend heavy iron, Steam

So for a multi-viewport scenery generator, just run three instances of this player (and perhaps pay three licenses).

My guess was that only the geographic data such as terrain, satellite imagery and vertex clouds will be streamed but the graphics are still rendered locally.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: martin on Mon, 7 Oct 2019 19:58
Quote from: Hoppie
all of FS2020 will be running on Azure in the MS Cloud, and you basically only install a local interactive video player.
Not quite. Apparently it will be a "three-layered" approach:
¤ online, scenery streamed,
   full quality;
¤ "pre-cached": download scenery in advance, then use cache during actual session;
   quality?
   (in theory ought to be the same as above, but will people (be able to) pre-download
    and store 10 GB for their local 30nm GA hop?  :-[) ;
¤ offline, nothing cached;
   reduced quality (how much?)

In any case, I'm sure purchase of new more powerful hardware will still be required. Old habits die hard, and Tradition must be honoured...  ;D

Disclaimer: AFAIK.

Cheers,
Martin
 
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Fri, 18 Oct 2019 09:39
https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/microsoft-flight-simulator-2020-reboot/

"There are several skills needed by pilots that can be practiced on this kind of flight simulation technology. Examples are hand-eye coordination, flight-related multi-tasking and instrument interpretation and scanning" says Captain Marie Stridh, flight captain and pilot recruiter at SAS Scandinavian Airlines.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: martin on Fri, 18 Oct 2019 22:00
"Examples are hand-eye coordination..."

Reading and writing, too!

 ;D
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Hardy Heinlin on Fri, 18 Oct 2019 22:16
Quote
"There are several skills needed by pilots that can be practiced on this kind of flight simulation technology. Examples are hand-eye coordination, flight-related multi-tasking and instrument interpretation and scanning" says Captain Marie Stridh, flight captain and pilot recruiter at SAS Scandinavian Airlines.

These skills were already needed in the sims of the 1980s. No wonder: You can't fly without these skills.

So, not a new challenge. Just an advertising slogan for newbies.


|-|
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: jcomm on Fri, 25 Oct 2019 07:10
Lastest Episode - Weather...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WYhU0-kN8c
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Will on Sun, 3 Nov 2019 23:52
The video clips are beautiful, of course. They are also completely stutter-free, which is a result I don't trust Microsoft to actually deliver.

I don't know what the top-of-the-line gaming specs are these days, but Microsoft Flight Sim 2020 will probably need something 500% better than what's available on the day it's released.

The popular boards (Avsim, FlightSim.com, etc.) all used to have pinned threads about the 40,000 tweaks that were felt too be necessary in order to get performance that is still below what people expect with a high-end machine.

I exaggerate... Perhaps Microsoft will surprise us this time.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 00:34
Although I am not at all on top of hardware developments these days, I have the impression that "progress" sort of slowed down, and has nearly halted in some areas. The limitations of physics make themselves apparent. Latest developments seem to focus on getting more cores onto a chip die, or on supporting edge processing such as more video blasting and CPU relief for other tasks that benefit from dedicated hardware. Away from the previous Intel-style "One CPU for us all and the rest can be done away with."

So we may not have that familiar 500% overbuilt software syndrome this time.

And I still want to see how much they put in their Azure blast furnaces and how much you actually get to install on your home cooker. Anti-piracy definitely has found its way in only streaming video encrypted for just your device or chipset, and no longer allowing downloads or installs.

One good thing: whereas old MSFS was notorious in not allowing multithreading, and so could not use any multicore CPU for real, the P3D modifications by its caretaker did enable these. It would be completely silly if the new MSFS would not use the same technology and actually make those cores work. Not the same code -- just the same approach. MS developers are not stupid; if management allows them to build quality software, they will do so.


Hoppie
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Will on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 00:52
I'm doubtful, but open-minded. If the result is good, they'll have my congratulations. And probably my money, too. :-)

I speculated about this a while back... but it seems to me that scenery generators like MSFS try to achieve smoothness by flashing multiple static images at as many FPS as the computer could generate. But this seems to have limitations when you're trying to display thousands of shapes on one frame.

So I wonder if a better approach would be to set the FPS forever at 24, the frame rate of motion pictures, and then create smoothness the same way film does, which is to blur motion between frames. If you freeze a film frame and look at it, what's moving will be blurry. But if you watch the film, the "motion" seems natural. Which makes me wonder if this technique could work for scenery generators, then there would be computing overhead left by capping the frame rate at 24.

Just thinking out loud. Sorry if this is too much of a hijack.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: cavaricooper on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 13:28
Will-

FWIW I have capped my frame rate at 24 for years, and just a few months ago, in the pursuit of silk, dropped it to 20 where it has stayed.  My test is the default scenario with the F22 and if I can roll it and Spot pan without any pause or jerk, I'm good to go.  That is where I have stayed, and that is where I have been happy.

In the large jet transport aircraft I fly, the motion is indeed silk- and except for the occasional long frame with scenery loading around 20 miles out- I have no complaints.

I firmly believe that the lock gives the machine capacity to use processing for functions that are impacted without the frame lock.

Only one opinion, and I'm aware of what they say about opinions :)

C

PS- I'm beginning to think that Flight Simulator 2020 will move the goal posts for most
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Mark on Mon, 4 Nov 2019 14:04
The simfest team are excited for FS2020 so I'm fairly confident that there will be a PSX-FS2020 bridge solution at release, or very soon after.  ;)
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Will on Tue, 5 Nov 2019 02:50
I really do look forward to MSFS reinventing itself. If they come out with a product that's both beautiful and fluid, then they've excelled and they deserve the praise they'll get. I'm eager to see what the final product looks like.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: ahaka on Tue, 5 Nov 2019 11:54
I think it's one of the unfortunate myths circulating the community that 20-24 Hz (or frames per second) is all you need. This is completely untrue, and I would say for an airliner you would need a minimum 50Hz for a decent experience that feels natural enough. Virtual Reality is yet another story and there I would say a good starting point is 80Hz.

Also, the MSFS and Prepar3d flight model runs at only 18Hz, and it shows. Hopefully things will be imporved in the new upcoming version. 
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: andrej on Tue, 5 Nov 2019 14:13
The simfest team are excited for FS2020 so I'm fairly confident that there will be a PSX-FS2020 bridge solution at release, or very soon after.  ;)

Mark, thanks for the update. It goes without saying that your entire team's contribution to VATSIM, PSX, and FS is incredible and a lot of us are grateful to you for it.

I am certain that thank to you, the visual immersion of FS2020 with PSX will make for a great experience.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: RogerH on Wed, 6 Nov 2019 11:57
Old movies used to run at 16fps and I never remember seeing any individual frames. I'm also set at 20fps since my main PC is very low end and needs all the help it can get! I'm not entirely sure why 50 fps is _neccessary_ - desirable without a doubt, though.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Wed, 6 Nov 2019 12:43
1. Movies cheat: although the frames are at a certain rate, they flicker the lamp at double that rate with a shutter.
2. Movies cheat: when they expose a frame during filming, the exposure is not brief enough to freeze the motion. They blur fast-moving objects. This blur actually helps your eyes and brain to smoothen out the low frame rate.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: RogerH on Wed, 6 Nov 2019 13:14
Didn't realise that. Thanks Hoppie.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Will on Thu, 7 Nov 2019 01:50
What Hoppie said in point two above is what I was alluding to with a new approach to flight sim graphics. You can guarantee buttery smooth motion without any jerkiness if you factor in motion blur.

Of course, without motion blur, the higher the FPS the more smooth, especially when the landscape that's depicted is changing rapidly (like if you're in a tail spin). Without motion blur, given a certain rate of change of what's being depicted, then more FPS means more smoothness.

But think about your favorite movie where things rush by really fast, say perhaps, the assault on the Death Star from Star Wars. You watch that in the theater and don't discern any jerkiness, despite watching it at 24 fps. The reason is that individual frames that contain motion are blurred.

How we could do this in a sim is to calculate frame A. Then calculate frame B. Then project frame 1, which is an interpolation of A towards B, blurring the things that move. (A dot that moves from one location on frame A to another location on frame B would look like a smear on frame 1.) Next, calculate frame C, then project frame 2, which is an interpolation of B towards C.

Repeat this ad infinitum, and you would get cinema-quality effects at only 24 fps, leaving, in theory, excess computer time to work on other things.
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Hardy Heinlin on Thu, 7 Nov 2019 02:03
By the way, I implemented this kind of motion blurr in PSX in the external traffic objects. Each of these aircraft consist of nav light dots. But PSX doesn't draw dots, it draws lines. Lines between the dots of two time frames. The lines get longer when they move faster, or when the frame rate decreases, or when the time acceleration increases. It's the most simple motion blurr method as they are just lines between dots :-)

It's not just a gimmick. If they were just dots you would hardly see any of these objects when their angular velocites are high, and they're always high when they are close.


|-|


Extreme demo: Load any cruise situation. Set night time, CAVOK. Engage HDG HOLD and ALT HOLD, and set time acceleration to x32. Go to Instructor > Situation > Human > Traffic and select "Start a semi-random preset". Hold the ALT key and click any Preset button. Watch the windshield ...
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: ahaka on Thu, 7 Nov 2019 08:52
Motion blur might work in the movies or as an effect in some games, but for a simulator it really isn't much of use if your baseline is something like 20fps.

Just try it in real life, move your head from side to side and up and down, in a similar manner you would do if flying any civilian aircraft. Motion blur? :)

Motion blur in 3D engines is really just an effect, it is not something that should be added if trying to replicate a real-life situation. On top of that, you still have the judder from the low frame rate, even if the blur makes it a little less apparent.

Even in cinemas you can see that the frame rate is not completely "natural".

Or just compare PSX running at 72Hz to something like PMDG running at 18Hz. Everything in PSX feels a lot more smooth and "life-like", not just the displays but the whole flying experience. Of course there are many factors that make this difference happen, but one big thing in it is the much higher update rate of PSX.

Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Jeroen Hoppenbrouwers on Thu, 7 Nov 2019 09:40
Also, calculating motion blur is actually a heavy operation. Adding it as a kind of anti-aliasing will hit the frame rate even more if you are CPU-bound. Hardware assistance may work here.

Hoppie
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Pierre Theillere on Fri, 15 Nov 2019 10:04
Hi All,

Here's a new MSFS2020 trailer: https://youtu.be/BCBgO6St9ug
It even features our beloved Queenie ... and also nice cities in 4K:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HwLeJSAGc
Title: Re: FS 2020, or FLIGHT SIMULATOR...
Post by: Hammerstan on Sat, 30 Nov 2019 02:26
information on home cockpit build support https://youtu.be/eLcSNppK14k (https://youtu.be/eLcSNppK14k)